From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ognen Duzlevski Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 09:53:00 -0500 Message-ID: <86a6f43uuh.fsf@sdf.org> References: <87iltt846s.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87v8xsq0zl.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87tudc140c.fsf@elephly.net> <87tudc2hny.fsf@vijaymarupudi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29698"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.9; emacs 27.2 To: guile-user@gnu.org Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 06 16:02:49 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nGj3w-0007Wz-S7 for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 16:02:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52730 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGj3v-0006AM-JK for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:02:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37830) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGj2V-00060A-Fu for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:01:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.24]:52956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGj2R-0001V7-4Y for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:01:17 -0500 Original-Received: from beast-server (IDENT:maketo@iceland.freeshell.org [205.166.94.5]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 216EwUGt028993 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO) for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 14:58:31 GMT In-reply-to: <87tudc2hny.fsf@vijaymarupudi.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.24; envelope-from=maketo@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18010 Archived-At: Vijay Marupudi writes: > Let's not make perfect be the enemy of good here. A language specific > package manager does work to a certain extent. I sometimes struggle to > recommend Guile for beginners to programming, or even those that have > some experience (in academia atleast). That's not because the language > is not friendly, it really is simple and there is plenty of Scheme > learning material around. However, it's really hard to get into the > ecosystem without an understanding of C and its packaging system and > culture. And I want more scientists and beginners to use Guile who don't > have that knowledge. Have you tried Racket? If you haven't - try that and you will find recommending Guile to beginners to be much easier ;). On a serious note, there are other schemes that have their own package managers (e.g. Racket). > As a relative new user of Guile, I had to learn a lot of adjacent > concepts about package management before I could become fluent with > Guile and split my code into modules and packages, and more importantly, > using other packages. Reducing the learning and effort barrier in this > regard, would be incredibly exciting, and I would like to help anyway I > can towards this effort. IMHO, this learning curve is a part of learning any language. The reason why every language comes with a language "specific" manager is because a lot of people have tried to solve this problem and failed to find the magic bullet. At some level you are relying on the language's portability itself, then on the same level you are wanting to exploit some of the language's specifics, then on the same level someone comes along and says for some packages this approach doesn't work... ;) > Asking beginners to use Guix is too much of a jump I think. But get them > hooked on Guile with an easy package manager and a rich ecosystem, and I > think they will come to appreciate Guix and other free software > projects, like I did. I agree. I have already been through the learning curve of Emacs, scheme etc. At what point do I focus on just getting my job done and having a life outside of the computer instead of constantly being on the treadmill of learning one more concept/tool/specific to get a small benefit out of it? People should always remember the 80/20 principle... -- There are 2 mistakes along the way to mastery: 1. Not starting the journey 2. Not going all the way