From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Freja Nordsiek Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel,gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: German translation of R5RS Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 16:17:51 +0000 Message-ID: <557E8491-AA5C-4FD7-8A69-FA8327BE7F6A@posteo.net> References: <20180428184817.3jbux62427sfhdjn@floriannotebook> <20180502184924.ypvspfxay3vyj2o3@floriannotebook> <20180512234403.mblakweedxvaow5j@floriannotebook> <87vab6wiks.fsf@netris.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----322WKH3DB4RGFI2L7BB2UB3VEMZ4GT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527610569 17221 195.159.176.226 (29 May 2018 16:16:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 16:16:09 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-devel@gnu.org To: guile-user@gnu.org, Mark H Weaver , "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 29 18:16:05 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNhI4-0004Nr-JC for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:16:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33869 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNhKB-0005WN-Rf for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 May 2018 12:18:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41805) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNhK4-0005W4-5A for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2018 12:18:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNhK0-0002jd-UJ for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2018 12:18:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:44648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNhK0-0002ip-Bz for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 May 2018 12:18:04 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31BCA20E50 for ; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:18:02 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1527610682; bh=7GPv0ZnytquwAVkO+O37U41CcgrJB+BfRp6dIvs0sx4=; h=Date:Subject:To:CC:From:From; b=GlK+0CN4K1lYzDn7WHB9vbNadI4YtNUMKGHKMFVn5om5BK2pt/j6Y3GbTBETNpr3h A5od7qMHLJ98aMEZuh64Dtk8zsskDykzLq10zkMCEci8mRaRW2X8K9jdWHdKfcHSv9 PVr5iiAOn46rlg5zpFSdeBVPPbNTuTVQIR7EOaOdeYVLcEOyGnmDAegB+bv6mhmzGC uifaDTji3xB2xWpv8e5A06FafxsRpgzHgMkbMv9QnUvYAOI6vB330exJEqhOGCPTvo dcTIqVa9S79WtgyAjTDnVba46LG1PkNQPve25+5ysz5ommO5QabhPOTXReH2ho03cp K2XCjR71MNqXQ== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 40wJmR0F1pz9ry5; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:17:58 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87vab6wiks.fsf@netris.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 185.67.36.65 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:19531 gmane.lisp.guile.user:14585 Archived-At: ------322WKH3DB4RGFI2L7BB2UB3VEMZ4GT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark does bring up an interesting point=2E Very good chances to find someon= e if one reached out to the communities of other implementations like Racke= t, Chicken, etc=2E And it would stand to benefit those communities in addit= ion to Guile=2E If I remember correctly (very good chance I do not), I thin= k the main developer of Chicken is a native German speaker, for example=2E Freja Nordsiek On May 29, 2018 4:08:19 PM UTC, Mark H Weaver wrote: >Hi Florian, > >"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" writes: >> Please accept my patches adding a German language info file for R5RS >> and fixing some small errors in English R5RS=2E I believe the patches >> to be reasonably correct=2E > >I very much appreciate this enormous amount of work that you've done! > >My primary concern is that I lack the ability to review this, because I >have not (yet?) learned to read German=2E > >A large technical specification like this is quite hard to produce >without introducing many mistakes=2E Even when everyone in a standards >committee is focused on the same draft document, errors are frequently >introduced=2E > >Errors in technical specifications can have quite bad consequences over >long time frames, because they lead to misunderstandings in the minds >of >developers, and thus bugs in code, which may persist for a long time=2E > >At present, most users who wish to read the R5RS have no choice but to >read the original document written in English=2E On the one hand, this >is >obviously a barrier and hardship for people who do not know English >well, but on the other hand, at least they can be assured that the >document they are reading has been widely reviewed by a large number of >people over several decades=2E > >If we now invite them to read a German translation which has not been >reviewed at all (except for the translator), I fear the resulting >misunderstandings and buggy code that this might entail=2E > >So, I would feel much more comfortable if someone else with good >knowledge of Scheme would step forward to carefully review this >translation=2E It need not be someone from the Guile community, which >brings me to the next issue: > >Although we distribute a copy of R5RS with Guile, we do not maintain >R5RS, and it is not specific to us=2E To me, this situation seems >somewhat analogous to submitting a large contribution for the Sqlite3 >library to the Firefox developers=2E Firefox distributes a bundled copy >of Sqlite3, but they do not maintain that library=2E > >However, I admit that this case is far more muddled, because R5RS is an >historical document, and there's no longer any group that maintains it >as far as I know=2E > >Are there any German speakers here with good knowledge of Scheme who >would be willing to make a careful review this translation? > > Mark ------322WKH3DB4RGFI2L7BB2UB3VEMZ4GT Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark does bring up an interesting point=2E Very go= od chances to find someone if one reached out to the communities of other i= mplementations like Racket, Chicken, etc=2E And it would stand to benefit t= hose communities in addition to Guile=2E If I remember correctly (very good= chance I do not), I think the main developer of Chicken is a native German= speaker, for example=2E


Freja Nordsiek

On May 29, 2018 4:08:19 P= M UTC, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris=2Eorg> wrote:
Hi Florian,

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <=
pelzflorian@pelzflorian=2Ede> writes:
 Please accept my patches adding a German language info f=
ile for R5RS
 and fixing some small errors in English R5RS=2E  I believe=
 the patches
 to be reasonably correct=2E

I very muc=
h appreciate this enormous amount of work that you've done!

My prima=
ry concern is that I lack the ability to review this, because I
have not=
 (yet?) learned to read German=2E

A large technical specification li=
ke this is quite hard to produce
without introducing many mistakes=2E  E=
ven when everyone in a standards
committee is focused on the same draft =
document, errors are frequently
introduced=2E

Errors in technical=
 specifications can have quite bad consequences over
long time frames, b=
ecause they lead to misunderstandings in the minds of
developers, and th=
us bugs in code, which may persist for a long time=2E

At present, mo=
st users who wish to read the R5RS have no choice but to
read the origin=
al document written in English=2E  On the one hand, this is
obviously a =
barrier and hardship for people who do not know English
well, but on the=
 other hand, at least they can be assured that the
document they are rea=
ding has been widely reviewed by a large number of
people over several d=
ecades=2E

If we now invite them to read a German translation which h=
as not been
reviewed at all (except for the translator), I fear the resu=
lting
misunderstandings and buggy code that this might entail=2E

=
So, I would feel much more comfortable if someone else with good
knowled=
ge of Scheme would step forward to carefully review this
translation=2E =
 It need not be someone from the Guile community, which
brings me to the=
 next issue:

Although we distribute a copy of R5RS with Guile, we do=
 not maintain
R5RS, and it is not specific to us=2E  To me, this situati=
on seems
somewhat analogous to submitting a large contribution for the S=
qlite3
library to the Firefox developers=2E  Firefox distributes a bundl=
ed copy
of Sqlite3, but they do not maintain that library=2E

Howe=
ver, I admit that this case is far more muddled, because R5RS is an
hist=
orical document, and there's no longer any group that maintains it
as fa=
r as I know=2E

Are there any German speakers here with good knowledg=
e of Scheme who
would be willing to make a careful review this translati=
on?

       Mark

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