From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alejandro Sanchez Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 00:46:48 +0100 Message-ID: <378B6C0D-EFBD-4999-A4D1-6CEF7467AD83@openmailbox.org> References: <9386102A-AA6C-4CC1-82EE-7758106A435C@openmailbox.org> <87mvcz4x43.fsf@web.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1488757691 10960 195.159.176.226 (5 Mar 2017 23:48:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 23:48:11 +0000 (UTC) To: guile-user@gnu.org Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 06 00:48:03 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ckfsc-0001J4-O3 for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 00:47:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40841 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ckfsf-0005fO-J5 for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 18:48:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39283) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ckfsK-0005fF-P5 for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 18:47:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ckfsF-0008WO-Vq for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 18:47:40 -0500 Original-Received: from lb1.openmailbox.org ([5.79.108.160]:55506 helo=mail.openmailbox.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ckfsF-0008WD-NQ for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 18:47:35 -0500 Original-Received: by mail.openmailbox.org (Postfix, from userid 20002) id 0457350C002; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 00:47:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=openmailbox.org; s=openmailbox; t=1488757623; bh=7h2p1tbPvn8uagFfkrxvWKFEI4ytnW4o6YFqkVbITyI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To:From; b=S1wNR5uVnLsHTcMvdJfNoUyPoAQRkJaWw9FnDgkJVPFE3TRdQVyG+QXi6svljLtTd 4qCJGmvEe6Gp/3gScGVkZBfNGfeclvKJjIZNA5oXLRitTxZkV1hiZ62RXFzoo1WlxM IO2cH9YjCAOU4oOpWOvcKStxrDpYPtfrjDvhS4fY= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=openmailbox.org; s=openmailbox; t=1488757621; bh=7h2p1tbPvn8uagFfkrxvWKFEI4ytnW4o6YFqkVbITyI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To:From; b=knbQupgxy8GKJZB8KqSQ76cy6uuIy6nuq12fufu1L+qOfnHYyy1hiAEN3+Jbnl8n8 qzZ6XON8R55c1r8cIBMq7GhvSBl7ijUAD0rj2yRB7I2vIg7vkH3T3GGL1dsCwv2SMv CB69awB4YYHj8iIacYOXksRQBltbRijjWx8KBT/c= In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 5.79.108.160 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:13419 Archived-At: Thank you for you responses, I will try to respond to them all in one = email. > About Emacs + Geiser as the default development environment Emacs is a power tool. Giving someone Emacs to write a simple script is = like handing someone a jackhammer to nail plywood together. OK, maybe = I=E2=80=99m stretching the analogy a bit, but when I think IDE I imagine = something that handholds people, for the better or worse. Sure, you = could offer some sort of pre-configured Emacs setup, but what=E2=80=99s = the point of that? This is why I had brought up the Language Server protocol, integrating = Scheme with an existing IDE allows people to jump right in with whatever = tool they are familiar with. It should also be less work to write a = server or modify Geiser to follow the Language Server protocol than to = maintain a separate distribution of Emacs. > About the lack of a standard implementation As Arne Babenhauserheide pointed out, there is no standard = implementation of C or C++ either, and yet those languages manage just = fine. The difference is in *what* is undefined. Undefined in C/C++ = usually means =E2=80=9Cdo not rely on this, demons might fly out of your = nose=E2=80=9D and you are not supposed to touch it unless you really = know what your compiler will do. Most of the undefined parts of C/C++ = can be avoided in a portable way. Undefined in Scheme before r6rs basically meant =E2=80=9Cwe couldn=E2=80=99= t all agree on one thing, so whatever=E2=80=9D. So you have to pick one = implementation and roll with it. My understanding is that=E2=80=99s how = PLT-Scheme turned into Racket and became its own thing. This makes my = code completely dependent on the implementation=E2=80=99s lifespan, and = that=E2=80=99s a commitment that=E2=80=99s hard to sell. =46rom what I understand, with r6rs and r7rs the voting has been changed = from unanimous to majory-vote, so this should become less of an issue = over time. > About the syntax I know about wisp, but that looks like an awkward cross-breed between = Python and Lisp. Lisp syntax is simply something one needs to get over. = For me it really clicked when I understood that Lisp syntax is not = really a syntax, it=E2=80=99s the AST (sort of). Wisp reminds me of = those people who use the arrow keys Vim and never leave insert-mode, in = the end they just have a convoluted Nano. Maybe Wisp will help people, I = don=E2=80=99t know, but it didn=E2=80=99t do anything for me. > Closing remark The question for someone shopping around for languages is: what is the = selling point for Guile (or Scheme)? Being a programmable programming = language sounds cool, but what does it let me do? Nothing on Guile's = website tells me =E2=80=9Clook at how easy this is to solve in Guile, = you cannot do this in other languages=E2=80=9D. What would that be? I = don=E2=80=99t know, I=E2=80=99m just a layman. The topic of the thread = is =E2=80=9Chow to make Guile more successful=E2=80=9D, and I most of = those are technical points, so I=E2=80=99m afraid that discussing = popularity is all I can contribute.