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Tue, 08 Feb 2022 11:46:33 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from bother.homenet (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bother.homenet (Postfix) with SMTP id 275AB268309 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 19:46:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <87a6f1mtz3.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42b; envelope-from=vine35792468@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18043 Archived-At: On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 19:19:06 +0700 Blake Shaw wrote: > Vijay Marupudi writes: > > I don't think it's fair to say that using packages in Guile just as > > easy/hard as other languages. Python / Javascript make this incredibly > > easy, and their ecosystem is evidence for that success. Their package > > managers have flaws, but they have benefits too, and those benefits > > would be great for Guile. > > I would just like to tag onto this convo that I agree that its not fair > to say that Guile is easy and will quickly bless those who endeavor to > learn it with superpowers. My experience w/Racket was very smooth and I > got working in it very quickly. I was a contracted to work on a project in > Python a few months ago and without ever studying it I was able to > start doing production work in it (ridiculous how intuitive it is, > really). Before I started learning Guile I read Edwin Brady's book on > Idris and found Idris much easier to get from start to end of small > projects I was working on (because there is a well written book on it). > > While Guile has become my favorite programming language, it took me > several months to learn how to navigate & figure out how to navigate the > SRFIs, how to plan a program so that I can know what to expect along the > way (what features I'll need to implement myself, etc) before I was able > to get productive in it beyond the realm of Guix. And I think most would > agree that Scheme is a less advanced language than Idris (I did some > category theory in school so I have some intuition for the ideas, but > still). And to be honest, I still hit plenty of road blocks. > > There were definitely some times where I was digging around trying to > figure out how to do things and came across messages in the archives > saying "its so easy you just do [vague hand wavy explanation]". And I > found that quite frustrating, like there is an insularity meant to weed > out the bad apples. And when this topic popped up on the guix list a few > weeks ago some others expressed similar concerns, folks who are doing > very impressive work. A programming language should never make > programmers feel dumb -- it should make us feel empowered! Everything is capable of improvement but the guile manual is a manual and not I think primarily intended as a language tutorial (although Chapter 3 of the manual does have a very cursory introduction to the scheme language). If you are looking for a tutorial, I suggest reading https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ . It covers the R6RS flavour, but at the tutorial level I don't think the various current standard flavours (R5RS, R6RS and R7RS) matter too much. I would be reluctant to see the manual turned into a tutorial if that were to mean abridging any of its current completeness.