From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mikael Djurfeldt Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Thread interface issues (was Re: C level mutices and condition variables) Date: 11 Nov 2002 17:05:23 -0500 Sender: guile-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <87vg3pot7a.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> Reply-To: djurfeldt@nada.kth.se NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1037054006 710 80.91.224.249 (11 Nov 2002 22:33:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18BN7P-0000Aa-00 for ; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:33:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18BN1x-00072C-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:27:41 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 18BMgW-0006Id-00 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:05:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 18BMgT-0006IB-00 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:05:31 -0500 Original-Received: from kvast.blakulla.net ([213.212.20.77]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18BMgS-0006I7-00 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:05:28 -0500 Original-Received: from linnaeus ([18.42.2.46]) by kvast.blakulla.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18BMgP-0005CR-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:05:25 +0100 Original-Received: from mdj by linnaeus with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18BMgN-0000JS-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:05:23 -0500 Original-To: Marius Vollmer Original-Cc: djurfeldt@nada.kth.se Original-Lines: 391 Errors-To: guile-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:1684 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.guile.devel:1684 I've talked a little with Marius about this over telephone. He asked me to give a summary of our discussion on the list. I'll try to do that, but don't promise to be fair and will probably miss a lot. (Also, Marius, there is an additional argument regarding the "combinatorial explosion" which I've marked with ***.) NOTE: Unfortunately, I'm *very* short of time right now, so I don't promise to continue discussing this issue. Therefore it's important that those of you who support my view don't expect me to defend it (if it needs fruther defence) but instead do that yourselves. We talked over four connected issues: Q1. How are we going to choose whether to use threads and which thread package to use? Compile-time, link-time or run-time? Q2. Should Guile have a "plug-in" thread interface a la glib or should we have multiple versions of libguile installed on the system? Q3. Should Guile have a C level thread API? (The present guile-devel news-thread arrived at the answer "no", but in my opinion the issue needs further thought.) Q4. How should the C level API be implemented? Scheme level implemented on top of C level or the reverse? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q1. How are we going to choose whether to use threads and which thread package to use? Compile-time, link-time or run-time? Currently, we make a compile-time choice of one of three thread packages: I. null-threads (on systems which don't support threads or where the sysadmin don't want threads in Guile) II. coop-threads (a qthreads based cooperative thread package) III. coop-pthreads (a pthreads based cooperative thread package) Is it right to make this choice at libguile compile-time or should it be at application link time or even run-time? If run-time, should individual Guile modules be able to independently choose which thread library to use? Our answer should be arrived at under consideration of our vision for future development, which Marius and I both think is full concurrency using pthreads. We basically have the Stalinist view that it would be good for the whole world to use the pthreads interface (arguments similar to those for using libc: portability, the possibility to get kernel-level optimizations etc). So, it might be that we in the future drop II and III in favour of (or keep II and III and add): IV. pthreads (a preemptive thread package) Arguments for/against compile-time choice: + Simple. + Enables compile-time optimizations. In a pthreads version, we could remove logic required for cooperative threading while cooperative thread libraries don't require mutecis for protection of common resources. - The sysadmin and application developer might be different people. If the sysadmin has installed Guile without thread support, an application developer (or user for that matter!) will be in deep trouble if the application needs thread support. This situation is unreasonable but could be resolved if we install multiple versions of libguile, one for each thread package. Arguments for link-time choice: (Link-time in this context means deciding which thread package to use once, at initialization of libguile.) + Moves the choice of thread library to the application developer where it should be. + Reasonably simple. Additional requirements are only: 1. a plug-in interface (a struct with pointers to the thread library functions) 2. glue code Arguments against run-time choice: - Unreasonably complex. - Would require multiple types of mutecis and condition variables or overly complex united forms. In this way the complexity intrudes also semantically. I think both Marius and I agree that the only reasonable answers to Q1 are: * link-time choice with one libguile or * compile-time choice with multiple libguiles (libguile, libguile-coop, libguile-copt etc) This results in Q2: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q2. Should Guile have a "plug-in" thread interface a la glib or should we have multiple versions of libguile installed on the system? An example of such a plug-in interface is included below. Arguments for/against plug-in interface: + Gives true modularity by decoupling libguile from the thread library. + Gives the application developer the freedom to use other thread packages with Guile, including experimenting with new thread libraries. Apart from choosing between COOP threads, COOP-pthreads and pthreads, there might be other thread packages out there which the application developer might prefer. For example, the Debian distribution provides State threads (libst1), LWP threads (liblwp2) and GNU Portable Threads (libpth; a cooperative thread library). The reason why this is a significant point is that it can be difficult to make different thread libraries play well together in the same application. If Guile uses X-threads, the application usually runs into trouble if it uses Y-threads. - (Probably insignificant) overhead due to one pointer indirection. - Puts a restriction on the thread library capabilities that we can use. (We can't continue to extend this API ad infinitum but must decide on a basic set of calls that we think most thread libraries can implement. But we may also use the strategy of GLib: that some of the calls are optional and can be initialized to NULL.) - Requires dynamic linking with an additional glue-code library if the thread package isn't directly written for Guile. Such a glue-code library initializes the plug-in interface and provides possibly required extra support code. Arguments for/against multiple versions of libguile: + Allows for compile-time optimizations (see Q1: compile-time choice). - Risk for combinatorial explosion of libguile versions due to compilation options. - *** Risk for combinatorial explosion of libguile support library versions. Note that we can't just draw the distinction between libguile on one hand which supports the application on the other hand. We also have libraries like libguile-gtk which have the double role of being application of libguile and providing application framework for user applications. While having multiple version of libguile may be reasonable, having, in addition, multiple versions of libguile-gtk et al is unreasonable. A partial solution is to introduce an abstraction which separates guile code + semi-guile code like libguile-gtk from the particular thread library being used so that, for example, a single libguile-gtk can support all versions of libguile. The Scheme-level thread interface provides such an abstraction so that Guile scheme modules are independent of the particular thread packages being used. The subset of primitive functions in this interface can provide a C level abstraction for loadable C-level Guile extensions, but we could also provide a C level thread API. In fact, such a C level thread API has been in place since 1998-01-30 (guile-1.2) but has just been deprecated. This brings us to Q3: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q3. Should Guile have a C level thread API? While an application should be free to use whatever thread package it wants by direct calls to its API, points discussed above shows that Guile Scheme and C modules should use an abstraction in order be independent of the thread package being used. The C level could either use the Scheme primitives, like this: SCM my_mutex = scm_make_mutex (); scm_lock_mutex (my_mutex); However, for thread creation, we would still probably want to use scm_spawn_thread, so this alterntive is rather a _partial_ C level thread API. In a full C level thread API, one would be able to: scm_t_mutex my_mutex; scm_mutex_init (&my_mutex); scm_mutex_lock (&my_mutex); (Although, as Marius has pointed out, scm_t_mutex is a bit rigid, since it requires knowledge of mutex size at compile-time. In the Glib thread interface and in the plug-in interface proposed below, scm_mutex_init is replaced with a mutex constructor function.) Arguments for/against C level thread API: + Easy programming in C. A major goal of Guile is to be an extension language for applications written in C. Because of this, we try to provide a nice environment not only for Scheme but also for C programmers. If we do provide a C API, it should be similar to the pthread API. In this case, the C programmer will feel very familiar with the interface and it's easy to convert code written for the pthread API. If we don't provide a C API, the code needs to deal with GC issues. For example, it is fairly common to store mutecis in dynamic application datastructures. If we go with Scheme API only, the application needs to make sure the mutex is GC protected. + Efficiency. In some cases, a thread package needs to be very efficient. Thread package developers make great efforts to reduce overhead. Even the need to switch from user space to system space is sometimes considered as causing significant overhead, so there are alternative thread libraries which run entirely in user space. For such applications where this matters, it seems wasteful to go by the indirections of the SCM data type and do unnecessary type checks when calling Scheme primitives from C. Note that the C level interface is not only intended for the direct cooperation with Scheme code, in which overhead may be of less significance, but is also intended for time-critical C code in a loadable Guile extension module. (This point is only valid together with the Scheme on top of C alternative in Q4 below.) + Deprecation will break applications. The current C level thread API has been in place since 1998-01-30 (guile-1.2) but has just been deprecated. Maybe only I have been using this API in several of my applications, but it doesn't seem nice towards application developers to remove such a useful feature when there is no simple replacement, especially when it's been in place for so long. - Demands extra work for Guile developers to maintain it. (Missing some - points? They might rather belong to Q2 or Q4 and could be listen there.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q4. How should the C level API be implemented? Scheme level implemented on top of C level or reverse? Scheme level on top of C level means that Scheme primitives call the C level API for core thread functionality. C level on top of Scheme level means that the Scheme primitives implement the core thread library functionality directly and that the C level interface is an adapter on top of this to facilitate coding for C programmers. (An example is provided by the currently deprecated C level API for coop-pthreads.) Just as regarding Q3, this may be a matter of coding philosophy: Either one aims for a slim C level solution or one wants to take advantage of the advanced facilities of a dynamically typed language and is prepared to pay for it. Arguments for Scheme level implemented on top of C level: + More "natural" Results in a natural layering of the code. The reverse will, in fact, be C - Scheme - C. Arguments for C level implemented on top of Scheme level: + Easier to use Scheme level facilities when implementing the thread packages. For example, we might decide, at a later stage, to add some debugging facilities to the thread support. We might prefer to write this in Scheme code. With C implemented on top of Scheme level this seems easier than for the reverse. Also, in implementing certain thread functionality, we might want to use Scheme facilities such as SCM lists. If we have an SCM list in a mutex, how will it be GC protected if the mutex resides under the C API? - We won't want to do that anyway in the envisioned pthreads implementation Since we're envisioning Guile using pthreads with full concurrency as a future standard thread package for Guile, it is likely that we won't need to implement much core thread functionality. It's more likely that we just want to wrap pthreads as Scheme primitives which seems to harmonize better with the Scheme on top of C alternatives. - Overhead Overhead problems will be even greater than those we'd have if we don't provide a C API at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, was it difficult to figure out what I want to see in Guile? ;-) If so, I want: * A plug-in interface which decouples libguile from the thread library and allows the application developer to choose which thread library to use with Guile. Preferably it should support both cooperative and preemptive scheduling. * An efficient and pthreads-like C level API. The plug-in interface could serve this role in addition to the decoupling role. * Scheme primitives implemented using the low-level C API. If you've read this far you have my respect! Good luck with decisions and implementation, Mikael ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposed plug-in interface structure: struct scm_threads { /* Threads */ scm_thread_t (*make_thread) (scm_threadattr_t *attr, void * (*start_routine) (void *), void *arg); void (*exit) (void *retval); int (*cancel) (scm_thread_t thread); int (*join) (scm_thread_t thread, void **retval); size_t (*free) (scm_thread_t thread); /* returns freed amount of memory */ /* Cooperative threads */ void (*yield) (void); /* optional */ /* Mutices */ scm_mutex_t * (*make_mutex) (const scm_mutexattr_t *mutexattr); int (*mutex_lock) (scm_mutex_t *mutex); int (*mutex_trylock) (scm_mutex_t *mutex); int (*mutex_unlock) (scm_mutex_t *mutex); size_t (*mutex_free) (scm_mutex_t *mutex); /* returns freed amount of memory */ /* Condition variables */ scm_cond_t * (*make_cond) (scm_condattr_t *cond_attr); int (*cond_signal) (scm_cond_t *cond); int (*cond_broadcast) (scm_cond_t *cond); int (*cond_wait) (scm_cond_t *cond, scm_mutex_t *mutex); int (*cond_timedwait) (scm_cond_t *cond, scm_mutex_t *mutex, const struct timespec *abstime); size_t (*cond_free) (scm_cond_t *cond); /* returns freed amount of memory */ /* Keys */ int (*key_create) (scm_key_t *key, void (*destr_function) (void *)); int (*key_delete) (scm_key_t key); int (*setspecific) (scm_key_t key, const void *pointer); void * (*getspecific) (scm_key_t key); /* Local data This is used by Guile to store the root structure. It could be a custom data field in the thread data structure or a dedicated key. */ void (*set_data) (void *data); void * (*data) (void); /* GC */ void (*mark_stacks) (void); /* Parameters */ void (*set_stack_size) (size_t size); }; _______________________________________________ Guile-devel mailing list Guile-devel@gnu.org http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile-devel