From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Linus_Bj=C3=B6rnstam?= Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 23:03:32 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="253247"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-360-g7dda896-fmstable-20191004v2 To: guile-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 17 00:08:38 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iKrTB-0013k5-J1 for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 00:08:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48564 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKrT9-00035P-Rh for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45359) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKqSl-0006Nc-Ld for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:04:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKqSh-00017j-30 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:04:07 -0400 Original-Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]:39321) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKqSb-0000yq-2I for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:03:58 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED73214B6 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from imap1 ([10.202.2.51]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:03:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=veryfast.biz; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=ZFeKJ 73aUlVxp9WfAnFe1xmbb/4eoG5cvYd+nYuBeNk=; b=PRmsvc63HpOFVLGrt98HY TK3pIAGnco7HaLq2KkRJDrsd0u7pEWwMUMamz02su2bAXwVEo032p/VCyXhctMNx Pz8jqjxrfr2b5iFDiVUdg43NdhMcMPWgfzN899WBRkM2gJgKcKbe22Ocb/9Uw4pV oz54aBFLcDRMWmp6oKTc9YLY2JegXJ7vvqVSZ8GsC4FG9Dd2yBGe0j7n14pxlR97 PXlBWYjviWWm2GO0mGDragvlH5fKsgw3Ehozf/cwz1vYhTzb4ztC1wr4EUXcaMpj cgBLywScXA0Y2cMTPkdpXeMnrWkulvxyW1UCV51xonl+or/LobrcB2EP0nFWjYEF g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ZFeKJ73aUlVxp9WfAnFe1xmbb/4eoG5cvYd+nYuBe Nk=; b=C3Om+7j9LOJHUIqES+dK35zN/JKasseCTuAt8xLTk7HIo0S+JxGNMZpEy GNUbWscbMBC70WoJPaEZZq16EyisArg5KiOcUXqdMDUWHIkn1Y2pHOxRZUmaai3q +Iexerj+AChPLQxqhhFMKmTiuK8XPkobZpgTyA1zAhn/5hWgbx+c4+JCj9WeF+gE v74uFCqletZzTIGu0iinjiF23TdLOfaLUv9MdkQE32/113WYak8UozUZaNK7aWke eaPFNwlLpSIhfS57frKqrAcnYfqPi/ljrUriJaXz6IuWZVUShHRp2QDpzqxd/skY iaCfHfsnxUYaapyif4N6WOBxUIadw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrjeehgdduiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepnfhinhhushgpuehjnphrnhhsthgrmhcuoehlihhnuhhs rdgsjhhorhhnshhtrghmsehvvghrhihfrghsthdrsghiiieqnecuffhomhgrihhnpeifih hnghholhhoghdrohhrghdprghrtghhihhvvgdrohhrghdpfihikhhiphgvughirgdrohhr ghdpshhtrghllhhmrghnrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehlihhnuh hsrdgsjhhorhhnshhtrghmsehvvghrhihfrghsthdrsghiiienucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3EACDC200A4; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:03:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.19 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:06:56 -0400 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:20084 Archived-At: Hi Andy! Your work (and amazing blog) and the wonderful work by the GUIX team is = what brought me to guile. I don't have any I'll feelings towards Mark (I= have appreciated his support on the mailing list many times), but I wil= l follow Guile wherever you and Ludo take it, inside or outside the GNU = project. I am but a lowly hobby programmer (who found a home in scheme) soI don't= think I can contribute much in either case, but if financial support fo= r hosting is needed I can contribute to that. Apart from trying my best = to help people in the IRC channel. Thank you for your work. --=20 Linus Bj=C3=B6rnstam On Wed, 16 Oct 2019, at 15:14, Andy Wingo wrote: > Hello all, >=20 > In the last few weeks, a conversation among GNU maintainers that has > been simmering for years burst into public. For a while it resubmerge= d > into private GNU lists, but now it has resurfaced to affect the Guile > project. >=20 > Just for background information, I wrote about my thoughts here: >=20 > https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu >=20 > The summary is that, like many people in GNU, I have long treated > Richard Stallman not as a hero, not as a leader, but rather a "missing= > stair" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair) that one has to > route around. This approach was never very inclusive -- if you don't > have much experience in GNU, it's possible to not know about it, and t= o > fall in the hole yourself. On the other hand if you know of RMS but n= ot > Guile, you might think that Guile developers support RMS. >=20 > However, recent events made me realize this approach was not only unfa= ir > to newcomers, but unjust as well, as by continuing to work on GNU and > not saying anything, I was both lending unmerited prestige to RMS, > enabling his creepy behavior towards women, and additionally, enabling= > his apparent pedophilia-advocacy. >=20 > Regarding this latter point, I wasn't really aware that this was a vie= w > RMS was promoting, but I am ashamed to admit that I had heard rumors > that Richard publically advocated sex between adults and teenagers, > defended sexual harassers, and questioned the experience of victims of= > sexual assault, and I preferred not to listen. Looking again, and I > think Richard's web site speaks for itself: >=20 > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.org/archive= s/2017-mar-jun.html#26_May_2017_(Prudish_ignorantism) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2017-jul-oct.html#29_October_2017_(Pestering_women) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stallman.org/ar= chives/2017-nov-feb.html#27_November_2017_(Roy_Moore's_relationships) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2018-mar-jun.html#30_April_2018_(UN_peacekeepers_in_South_Sudan) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/ar= chives/2018-jul-oct.html#17_July_2018_(The_bullshitter's_flirting) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/ar= chives/2018-jul-oct.html#21_August_2018_(Age_and_attraction) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_(Cody_Wilson) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stallman.org/ar= chives/2018-sep-dec.html#6_November_2018_(Sex_according_to_porn) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2019-jan-apr.html#14_February_2019_(Respecting_peoples_right_to_say_n= o) > =20 > https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_2019_(Stre= tching_meaning_of_terms) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2019-may-aug.html#12_June_2019_(Declining_sex_rates) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2019-may-aug.html#30_July_2019_(Al_Franken) > =20 > https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archiv= es/2019-jul-oct.html#27_August_2019_(Me-too_frenzy) >=20 > Anyway. So far, so GNU. A couple weeks ago I thought it an opportune= > moment to declare publicly the views that I have long held privately: > that I do not consider RMS to be the leader of GNU, and that GNU > maintainers and other developers with a stake in the project should > organize to fill the void. >=20 > * * * >=20 > I pause here to mention that you may not agree with this perspective a= nd > that is fine. There are many ways that we can continue to work togeth= er > while this discussion plays out. Part of the purpose of this mail > though is to make it clear that there are differences of opinion and > that the GNU project is in flux. >=20 > * * * >=20 > Now we get to how this issue affects Guile. >=20 > Before the RMS/GNU/FSF conversation started, Mark Weaver left Guile, f= or > essentially unrelated reasons. He threatened to leave because he wish= ed > to be consulted before I landed mixed definitions and expressions and > shipped them in the 2.9.4 release; I responded over email asking to ta= lk > about the issues; in response a week later I see that he resigned from= > maintainership and left the Guile group on Savannah. It was truly a > shame for Guile, as Mark is an excellent hacker and has done a lot of > good work for Guile. >=20 > It's true also that, mixed with the sadness, I felt a modicum of relie= f. > It has never been easy to work with Mark. I could toil on Guile for > weeks, taking time away from my family, and then wake up to receive a > private mail excoriating me for my work. It was also far from the fir= st > time he threatened to leave the project if he did not get his way. I > have never let the problems between Mark and me into the public sphere= > though, preferring to preserve his reputation, and it is only out of > necessity that I do so now. >=20 > Yesterday, on internal project-wide GNU mailing lists, Mark brought up= > his personal grievances with me, arguing that the only reason I was > ignoring RMS was because, in his opinion, RMS is the only person that > could stop me from being Guile Dictator For Life; that I was attacking= > Richard out of some kind of hypocritical, tyrannical megalomania. >=20 > Naturally I don't think this is the case. We all have our problems bu= t > this particular one isn't mine. It is true that when I get home after= a > long day of work and take care of my family and maybe have a precious > half-hour or hour here or there, I usually prefer to devote it to > retiring items from my personal Guile 3.0 to-do list, rather than > helping others; a failing, perhaps, but not a malicious one. I always= > tried to enable Mark's work, supporting him becoming committer, then > maintainer, then trying to keep him on board; but evidently that was n= ot > enough. Fair enough; I can't please everybody. >=20 > Still, it was with surprise that I woke up this morning to a request > from Mark to re-join the Guile project on Savannah, saying that RMS ha= d > appointed Mark to become co-maintainer, and that Mark assented -- "giv= en > recent events". >=20 > Now, Richard has no idea about Guile or how it works either technicall= y > or socially, and has not consulted with me as Guile maintainer, nor to= > my knowledge did he consult with Ludovic. I don't know what to conclu= de > about RMS's motivations -- is it retaliation? And why would Mark > assent, especially if he professes to be scandalized by autocratic > behavior and messianic tendencies? I can't say as I have no more > information than this Savannah request. >=20 > It a test, perhaps? Mark is already aware that I do not consider RMS = to > have a leadership role in the GNU project, but although this position = is > shared by others, it is not a consensus position, and I don't think it= 's > Mark's position. Of course it goes without saying that I don't consid= er > this supposed appointment of Mark as co-maintainer of GNU Guile to be > legitimate in the least, but who else will go along with it? >=20 > And what role is Mark looking for? Are we to have commit wars or > something? I would certainly hope not but I can't tell. I don't thin= k > the conditions exist currently for good collaboration between me and > Mark, so I am not sure how this will play out in the future. >=20 > * * * >=20 > I guess I shouldn't be surprised that conversation about the future of= > GNU has now reached Guile, but it is still strange to find that the > questions of "how much pedophilia advocacy is too much pedophilia > advocacy" or "how much creepiness towards women is acceptable" should > have any bearing on the development of an implementation of Scheme. > But, here we are. The differences of position are real and we need to= > see how to go forward with them. >=20 > Perhaps this moment is an opportunity, to see where the Guile communit= y > stands. In that spirit I invite Guile community members to weigh in o= n > the issue. What do you think about Guile's continued relationship wit= h > GNU? What about its relationship with RMS? Finally, what would you > like to see happen regarding the future of Guile? >=20 > Yours in free software, >=20 > Andy >=20 >