Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Rob Browning]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org> writes:

> so that's the likely cause of the problems.  the term "expected drift"
> sounds really weird to me, btw -- have you been talking to marketing?

"Drift" seems possible and even perhaps likely to me when a particular
feature that was previously undocumented, and not covered by make
check, is both publically available and used.  It's a bit similar to
the scwm and guppi issue wrt dynamic wind, something I spent a while
trying to fix[1] :>.  In any case the drift I was referring to is
something I suspect we're both interested in trying to avoid in the
future.

[1] though in truth guppi and scwm were using bits a bit beyond
    "publically available" -- we still need a public API for the
    functionality they want.

> i suppose what i'll do is port 1.4 functionality into 1.6, add
> "--compat=1.4" (or whatever, i'm open to suggestions) option
> handling, and document these things.  :-/

I'm unfamiliar with the issues, having never used or examined the
snarfing process, so please see what you think is best.  As
alternatives, we could provide a deprecated guile-snarf-1.4 script,
or, if the changes required for 1.6 won't be extensive, we could
possibly just provide good transition documentation.  I'd be happy to
fix what's needed in gnome-guile, and I suspect that Dale would be
amenable to adapting his code too, once the requirements are clear.

> this means the call to guile-snarf failed in some way, but only the
> Makefile knows for sure...  what does guile-snarf invocation look
> like there?

  guile-snarf -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I. -D_REENTRANT -I/usr/include/gtk-1.2 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/include/glib-1.2 -I/usr/lib/glib/include  -I/home/rlb/opt/gnome-guile-0.20-1.5/include -I/home/rlb/opt/guile-1.5/include  -g -O2 guile-gtk.c >guile-gtk.c.tmp && mv guile-gtk.c.tmp guile-gtk.x
  guile-gtk.c:2784: guile-gtk.x: No such file or directory
  make[2]: *** [guile-gtk.x] Error 1
  make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/rlb/gnome-guile-0.20/guile-gtk'
  make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
  make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/rlb/gnome-guile-0.20'
  make: *** [all-recursive-am] Error 2
  You have new mail in /var/mail/rlb

At first glance I had presumed that the problem was that although
guile-gtk.c #includes guile-gtk.x, the old snarfing process supressed
that include, but the new one doesn't, but that was just a guess.
Here's what guile-gtk.c says wrt guile-gtk.x:

  #ifndef SCM_MAGIC_SNARFER
  #ifndef MKDEP
  #include "guile-gtk.x"
  #endif /* MKDEP */
  #endif /* SCM_MAGIC_SNARFER */

Thanks

-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org, @linuxdevel.com, and @debian.org
Previously @cs.utexas.edu
GPG=1C58 8B2C FB5E 3F64 EA5C  64AE 78FE E5FE F0CB A0AD

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Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
   Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:42:31 -0600

   "Drift" seems possible and even perhaps likely to me when a
   particular feature that was previously undocumented, and not covered
   by make check, is both publically available and used. [...] something
   we're interested in trying to avoid in the future.

does anyone mind if i add this explanation to the manual in the
terminology section?  it seems to be a fundamental part of the
user/maintainer dialogue.

   > i suppose what i'll do is port 1.4 functionality into 1.6, add
   > "--compat=1.4" (or whatever, i'm open to suggestions) option
   > handling, and document these things.  :-/

   [with good transition docs,] I'd be happy to fix what's needed in
   gnome-guile, and I suspect that Dale would be amenable to adapting
   his code too, once the requirements are clear.

the transition docs and modified guile-snarf are done (testing at the
moment, checkin today likely).  i will also outline the t.docs in NEWS,
and use my new vocab.  hopefully compat mode can accomodate those who
aren't ready to change their source.

     guile-snarf [invocation and result]

   At first glance I had presumed that the problem was that although
   guile-gtk.c #includes guile-gtk.x, the old snarfing process supressed
   that include, but the new one doesn't, but that was just a guess.
   Here's what guile-gtk.c says wrt guile-gtk.x:

     #ifndef SCM_MAGIC_SNARFER
     #ifndef MKDEP
     #include "guile-gtk.x"
     #endif /* MKDEP */
     #endif /* SCM_MAGIC_SNARFER */

ack, i had been looking at how guile-1.4 does its own snarfing for a
hint at how guile-1.4 guile-snarf works, but that was a mistake!
guile-1.4 uses some other method of snarfing for itself.  guile-snarf is
not even used there.  must.  fight.  gumption.  leak...

thi

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Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Rob Browning]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org> writes:

> does anyone mind if i add this explanation to the manual in the
> terminology section?  it seems to be a fundamental part of the
> user/maintainer dialogue.

I'm not particularly excited by the term "drift" if that's what you're
getting at.  I'm sure there are better ways to describe the issue --
if you'll note it was about 11:30PM here when I write the original
message and I wasn't all that concerned with getting every word
exactly right.  All I was *really* trying to get across was that
something was still broken, and I wasn't sure exactly what the source
of the problem was.

However, if you're talking about documenting the more general issue of
problems related to public vs private APIs, cross-version maintenance,
and the importance of regression testing, then I've got no problem
with that.

> ack, i had been looking at how guile-1.4 does its own snarfing for a
> hint at how guile-1.4 guile-snarf works, but that was a mistake!
> guile-1.4 uses some other method of snarfing for itself.  guile-snarf is
> not even used there.  must.  fight.  gumption.  leak...

OK, well just let me know if you need help, or if you figure out how
you'd like to handle programs using the older approach, and I'll fix
up gnome-guile accordingly.

Thanks

-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org, @linuxdevel.com, and @debian.org
Previously @cs.utexas.edu
GPG=1C58 8B2C FB5E 3F64 EA5C  64AE 78FE E5FE F0CB A0AD

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Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.uklinux.net>
   Date: 08 Mar 2002 12:30:34 +0000

   It wasn't me that wrote these, but they look useful and I've no
   objection to adapting them as you suggest.

sorry for the mis-attribution.  i believe Greg Badros wrote those docs.
what are your plans for them, btw?  as soon as i check in the updated
tools.texi, i'd like to remove sources/snarf.texi to reduce confusion.

thi

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Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Neil Jerram]

>>>>> "Thien-Thi" == Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org> writes:

    Thien-Thi>    From: Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.uklinux.net>
    Thien-Thi>    Date: 08 Mar 2002 12:30:34 +0000

    Thien-Thi>    It wasn't me that wrote these, but they look useful and I've no
    Thien-Thi>    objection to adapting them as you suggest.

    Thien-Thi> sorry for the mis-attribution.  i believe Greg Badros wrote those docs.
    Thien-Thi> what are your plans for them, btw?  as soon as i check in the updated
    Thien-Thi> tools.texi, i'd like to remove sources/snarf.texi to reduce confusion.

In my view, it's fine to remove anything in `sources' as soon as we
are sure that it is no longer useful.  And I'd say that having
equivalent/updated material elsewhere would make the `sources' copy
unuseful.

        Neil



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Re: gnome-guile broken with guile 1.5 (gg used guile-snarf).

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.uklinux.net>
   Date: 14 Mar 2002 20:34:04 +0000

   [doc/sources/snarf.texi removal (redundant)]

ok this is done everywhere.

thi

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