From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Panicz Maciej Godek Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: Dijkstra's Methodology for Secure Systems Development Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:52:46 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87y4tetq7q.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> <87lhpdteh1.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044403589f25cf050398ad1c X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1411329186 26642 80.91.229.3 (21 Sep 2014 19:53:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:53:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Ian Grant , guile-devel To: "Taylan Ulrich Bayirli/Kammer" Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 21 21:52:59 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XVnBr-0007A8-3j for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:52:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40718 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVnBq-0003xn-Py for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:52:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40178) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVnBl-0003xW-O9 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:52:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVnBk-0001Yh-KV for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:52:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-we0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a]:45772) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XVnBk-0001XL-8s for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:52:52 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id x48so507182wes.29 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ayMLtDhtMvFJQUMBfo5Gos1trxhi5DLG0+wtR92CPKs=; b=bLDLK2wn4nx/Au2hvd6JSj6WktGyE3QoJK8ptMmslAq2/1bBUuCy1lCNZnoNsIjzrD h8WuSQ1DcoltTJqI2ZA09Kydu8/nlR+jrsCRLnNB+b42mU0zBNDSzRtTRquOU2OxOtbf 7pdsExz82Z/YiXjJBYumYCjnOH1hB7Xo1QQ0+L1gx92amkSxYZVUtfhoEgz4UPoaaSsD kP9vdZHg7XJwNQJg8ZWbIFhxozxZQHUEkO6F7Z3zFvdSTu3X7Z2LfSnplcLr8/svGaHM ida09AGgmprDuOW9LkM0SNnlIJ7xC2A89ggd30MUWleozY/6oFZr2/vjdiA4hCNxujeL SxFw== X-Received: by 10.180.101.202 with SMTP id fi10mr10562409wib.17.1411329166351; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.194.188.36 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87lhpdteh1.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17511 Archived-At: --f46d044403589f25cf050398ad1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-09-21 13:11 GMT+02:00 Taylan Ulrich Bayirli/Kammer < taylanbayirli@gmail.com>: > [...] > Still, one last political remark from me: > > Things are more complicated. Google might be incapable of evil, but > then they might be a tool of the US government. Not calling the US > government "evil" either, but consider people like Julian Assange or > Edward Snowden. Things get unpleasant, and someone with good ideals > ends up being dubbed a terrorist. And they might not be able to become > part of the government to push their ideals into acceptance, so they > should at least have the ability to discuss them anonymously without > ending up on a watch list. > > That's part of the reason I think free software is important, and I > think many people would agree. (If you don't, or think my reasoning is > flawed, then let's just agree to disagree so we don't continue with OT.) I think that I'd be insane to disagree with the need for free software. All I want to say is that FSF has already done a great deal of work by popularizing the notion of free software, and although I wouldn't want to diminish the significance Ian's concerns, it's just too hard for me to believe, that even if we tackle the problem post factum (if we actually are endangered), it will be too late to handle it (but I do agree that I might be deadly wrong with this point. There's even a proverb "m=C4=85dry polak p= o szkodzie" -- "a pole is wise only after getting harm"). On the other hand, the idea seems very interesting by itself, and this alone makes it worth pursuing. If there are people out there who believe that assuring that GCC binaries are free from Thompson virus is crucial part of FSF mission, then I have absolutely no intention to argue with that, although I am strongly convinced that it is reckless if a programmer suffers from malnutrition or neglects personal hygiene at his own will. --f46d044403589f25cf050398ad1c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2014= -09-21 13:11 GMT+02:00 Taylan Ulrich Bayirli/Kammer <<= a href=3D"mailto:taylanbayirli@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">taylanbayirli@g= mail.com>:
[...]
Still, one last political remark from me:

Things are more complicated.=C2=A0 Google might be incapable of evil, but then they might be a tool of the US government.=C2=A0 Not calling the US government "evil" either, but consider people like Julian Assange= or
Edward Snowden.=C2=A0 Things get unpleasant, and someone with good ideals ends up being dubbed a terrorist.=C2=A0 And they might not be able to becom= e
part of the government to push their ideals into acceptance, so they
should at least have the ability to discuss them anonymously without
ending up on a watch list.

That's part of the reason I think free software is important, and I
think many people would agree.=C2=A0 (If you don't, or think my reasoni= ng is
flawed, then let's just agree to disagree so we don't continue with= OT.)

I think that I'd be insane to dis= agree with the need for free software.
All I want to say is that = FSF has already done a great deal of work by popularizing the notion of fre= e software, and although I wouldn't want to diminish the significance I= an's concerns, it's just too hard for me to believe, that even if w= e tackle the problem post factum (if we actually are endangered), it will b= e too late to handle it (but I do agree that I might be deadly wrong with t= his point. There's even a proverb "m=C4=85dry polak po szkodzie&qu= ot; -- "a pole is wise only after getting harm").
On th= e other hand, the idea seems very interesting by itself, and this alone mak= es it worth pursuing.
If there are people out there who believe t= hat assuring that GCC binaries are free from Thompson virus is crucial part= of FSF mission, then I have absolutely no intention to argue with that, al= though I am strongly convinced that it is reckless if a programmer suffers = from malnutrition or neglects personal hygiene at his own will.
<= br>
--f46d044403589f25cf050398ad1c--