From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ian Grant Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: A comprehensible introduction to Ian Grant's ideas Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 21:57:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87fvf4fl9p.fsf@netris.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412474265 1876 80.91.229.3 (5 Oct 2014 01:57:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 01:57:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-devel To: Mark H Weaver Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 05 03:57:40 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xab4u-0008ON-Ce for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Oct 2014 03:57:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45848 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xab4t-0007Ax-UX for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:57:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60366) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xab4q-0007Am-8o for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:57:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xab4o-0004IE-N2 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:57:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]:58425) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xab4o-0004Hy-Fu for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 21:57:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id a1so4041236wgh.33 for ; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Bq4Y4QIrr6zgpaQr5HhCO4D/OfWUyTOopiGwNbnW254=; b=vlGrNnK7x4qvAPjRblY6Yxa+PiA5C4t9RvNYbp05GElSeX2rFG+TRLUUNNvfv93xYk 4WKZ4XA+sWPks0dvdLpFGFs9kSjQbyq6SLDWRYUartHyLZ+2FptOhew4Q3C2kxSLEaWy Td67tJV+rnUl5Fr+C5lklYBrMW6eUtzSP9cP/IJc71JxHhXckRFnFYOY536d0IEkcUXM S1/raQzdriV5b4a9XtnCPpW+fLEgcm3kxKpxC/3cusQ8F3LQ9oWZvJgmB6QxQxhii76z qWFEKPafBzcfXVDWv2jFh1WVXNUfwJ2rxVLEgsxOIl8jjOfsAx4Jbohr3p6n4rr1xe4j 76CA== X-Received: by 10.194.118.201 with SMTP id ko9mr19217412wjb.9.1412474253540; Sat, 04 Oct 2014 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.194.77.49 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Oct 2014 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87fvf4fl9p.fsf@netris.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17540 Archived-At: On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Mark H Weaver wrote: > Ian, you are a _terrible_ communicator. IMO, your biggest problems are: > > 1. You present your ideas in a far too abstract way, making it hard for > those of us who haven't already been long acquainted with your ideas > to begin to understand them. This is correct. They are extremely abstract, because they are nothing more than the true essence of the idea of abstraction itself. Abstraction is the nature of language, and so language implementations, if they are to be useful, must be entirely abstract. There must be no trace of any particular concrete representation whatsoever, because it is through identifying the language with a particular concrete implementation that the abstraction 'leaks information.' > 2. You write far too much, making it hard for us to find the few > writings of yours that might be able to get through our thick skulls. I have written a lot, and it is incoherent. This is because I am having to counter objections from people who have not understood what I wrote. These objections have been many, and of course they are all incoherent! > 3. You insult us, making us predisposed to want to dismiss you. If you look, and try to find a counter-example in anything I have written, you will find that I have not insulted anyone. I hope though, that I have made some people feel like complete idiots. That was definitely my intention. The problem is that,complete idiots being what they are, they invariably think they've been insulted when they are made to feel like this. :-) > However, I found a blog post of yours that I believe is a relatively > good introduction to your ideas. I suspect this is because it is a > response to Paul Koning, who had the effect of keeping your thoughts > organized, and less abstracted. This is the contra-positive of what I have just argued: anyone who takes the trouble to read and understand what I have written will find they have this "magical effect" on me. > For those who would like to try to understand Ian's ideas, I would > recommend first reading this excellent interview with Edsger Dijkstra, > which Ian cites in his post: > > http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/misc/vanVlissingenInterview.html > > and then read Ian's response to Paul Koning: > > http://livelogic.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-free-fair-and-forged.html I hope there will be many more posts like this, one for each intelligent, coherent criticism I get of "my ideas." Ian