From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ian Grant Newsgroups: gmane.comp.gnu.lightning.general,gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: Bug free programs Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:35:02 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20140917005748.8CXVB.21497.root@cdptpa-web03> <8738brsz82.fsf@yeeloong.lan> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7056458971903918008==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1410961264 12879 80.91.229.3 (17 Sep 2014 13:41:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 13:41:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lightning , dsmich-XauvlLoUTru+XT7JhA+gdA@public.gmane.org, guile-devel To: Mark H Weaver Original-X-From: lightning-bounces+gcglg-lightning=m.gmane.org-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Wed Sep 17 15:40:59 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcglg-lightning@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFTe-0002DF-D2 for gcglg-lightning@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:40:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45134 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFTe-0006rc-1p for gcglg-lightning@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:40:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60157) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFTW-0006pl-Fh for lightning-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:40:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFTU-0002GF-Mx for lightning-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:40:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]:42784) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFTU-0002F8-2x; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:40:48 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id x12so1401034wgg.26 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zmjnLuTTLiUjbrKT/K7+2UeG2eTUGBS4pzh5oa2YUvk=; b=ku2LnLU8NDRZ51NsqCy9PxWwIseRbiHm6V+IsxJrdjHl5wiMH4asAsdt3R3CqwcwnA gVVF6+94d25wPmTswt6yFcnwwaxXydICLqfAosytjzuFYMDSEKH9VwPBn302g6maZrm/ 7YLXoEfTPYPy87lsdSFLvUNhcTGZ3ejFyixO8k+lTyVDnXwrCTMdWYsXmSK8yPhWLgXW ppHtbpJuN7VfG0lyIozMdcU90L1j1t/GJrsmJ4GpdQNjZyXo7Y0J2F+CjmKirCOqVk9J j/Nea2TnFjUP+jpVCHn2KtZPXbsxcmYABaJTy1QN2JGWHorIF+FGQn9sjJvtrT9yvgi1 aL5w== X-Received: by 10.194.122.6 with SMTP id lo6mr50883629wjb.17.1410960902488; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.194.81.194 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:35:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8738brsz82.fsf-Ir+b6ulHfbb+AlalS6MPSg@public.gmane.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b X-BeenThere: lightning-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: lightning-bounces+gcglg-lightning=m.gmane.org-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Original-Sender: lightning-bounces+gcglg-lightning=m.gmane.org-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.gnu.lightning.general:588 gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17469 Archived-At: --===============7056458971903918008== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0117643d628b0d050342ef47 --089e0117643d628b0d050342ef47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Mark H Weaver wrote: > Ian Grant writes: > > Are you suggesting that we compile our Scheme code to C, include that > in our distribution, and then users would start by compiling that > (non-source) C code? If so, I'm surprised to hear you suggest that, > given your concern over Thompson viruses (which I share, incidentally). > A Thompson virus could be hiding in this intermediate C code that would > be very hard to audit. > Tell me, how did you compile your OS kernel and your glibc, ld.so, ld, as and gcc binaries? You don't seem to understand the problem: a "Thompson virus" is not hard to audit, it is _impossible_ to audit, because it's _invisible_. The method I explain in that document will allow us to know that there is very probably not a "Thompson virus" anywhere in the system. I, for one, am very glad that unlike many self-hosting compilers, Guile > is bootstrapped entirely from source code, with just one exception: > psyntax-pp.scm is generated from psyntax.scm, but it's fairly close to > the source code and quite readable. Incidentally, I put a great deal of > effort into making sure it was readable. > I can assure you that Guile is most certainly not bootstrapped entirely from source code. If you had understood any of the discussion about the problem you would know that there is not one single line of GNU source that has ever been bootstrapped from source code. > > > See the thunder.pdf I sent when I first proposed this idea: > > > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2014-08/msg00064.html > > If you want me to read it, can you please email it as plain text? > No: because If you can't read a PDF then you can't read _any_ of the research papers you need to be able to read in order to stand the slightest chance of doing a decent job of developing any kind of software at all. Ian --089e0117643d628b0d050342ef47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:27 PM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris= .org> wrote:
Ian Grant <ian.a.n.grant-gM/Ye1E23mwN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> writes:

Are you suggesting that we compile our Scheme code to C, include tha= t
in our distribution, and then users would start by compiling that
(non-source) C code?=C2=A0 If so, I'm surprised to hear you suggest tha= t,
given your concern over Thompson viruses (which I share, incidentally).
A Thompson virus could be hiding in this intermediate C code that would
be very hard to audit.

I, for one, am very glad that unlike many self-hosting compilers, Guile
is bootstrapped entirely from source code, with just one exception:
psyntax-pp.scm is generated from psyntax.scm, but it's fairly close to<= br> the source code and quite readable.=C2=A0 Incidentally, I put a great deal = of
effort into making sure it was readable.

I can assure you that Guile is most certainly not bootstrapped entirely f= rom source code.=C2=A0 If you had understood any of the discussion about th= e problem you would know that there is not one single line of GNU source th= at has ever been bootstrapped from source code.

> See the thunder.pdf I sent when I first proposed this idea:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2= 014-08/msg00064.html

If you want me to read it, can you please email it as plain text?

No: because If you can't read a PDF t= hen you can't read _any_ of the research papers you need to be able to = read in order to stand the slightest chance of doing a decent job of develo= ping any kind of software at all.

Ian

=
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