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* Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches)
@ 2021-12-13 22:18 Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jean Abou Samra @ 2021-12-13 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-devel, maximedevos, arne_bab; +Cc: wingo, ludo, Jonas Hahnfeld

> Hi,
>
> Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide schreef op za 11-12-2021 om 16:12 [+0100]:
> >/+ (p "To contribute small improvements, please send patches to/
> >/"/
> >/+    (a (@ (href "mailto:guile-devel@gnu.org" 
> <mailto:guile-devel@gnu.org">;))/
> >/"guile-devel@gnu.org")/
> >/+       ".")/
>
> What about contributing _large_ improvements?
> Where should patches for large improvements go?
>
> >/+ (p "For larger changes, please discuss them first in the "/
> >/+ (a (@ (href "https://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile->/
> devel/")) "development mailing list")
>
> What if I tried to discuss them, but nobody answered?
> (https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=46258)
> (Not 100% accurate though, because I discussed the interface on IRC a
> bit IIRC? I can't find it in the logs anymore though.)
>
> What if, I then proceed with writing the patches, and nobody responds
> with some points to work on or applies it?
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-03/msg00026.html)
> (The only response is a +1-style response.)
>
> What if, eight months later, I send a simplified patch series, with
> things made more consistent, and with much more tests, and this time,
> there is exactly one response, with a minor point that is quickly
> addressed
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-11/msg00019.html),
> but the patches aren't applied?
>
> There have been many commits and two releases since the first patch
> series
> (https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/log/?id=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430&qt=range&q=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430..HEAD&ofs=100  <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/log/?id=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430&qt=range&q=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430..HEAD&ofs=100>)
> , without any signs that it will actually ever be applied.
>
> So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that while your patch documenting
> how to contribute seems reasonable to me, it has been very inaccurate
> for me in practice (not your fault!).
>
> Greetings,
> Maxime


I concur with this concern. The patch
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-07/msg00000.html
has been proposed five months ago and after
several pings still only saw responses from Maxime.
It comes from a LilyPond developer trying to fix
issues relevant for LilyPond.

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=16364#19
is a patch allowing to silence the auto-compilation
logging, which is also somewhat relevant to our use
case. It has not seen any reaction.

I see a number of similar cases on the mailing list.

I understand the cost of reviewing and I know that
nobody is entitled to anything in the free software
world. However, I would like to voice the concern that
Guile's maintenance is not scaling, and the project
cannot attract new contributors if patches do not
make it to the main branch. If the current maintainers
need to drop their activity, it would be nice if
they could share maintainership so that at least
bug fixes can be applied.

(NB: Sending this as myself, _not_ after any sort
of discussion at LilyPond.)

Thank you for your consideration,
Jean Abou Samra




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches)
  2021-12-13 22:18 Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches) Jean Abou Samra
@ 2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2021-12-15 10:20 ` Maintenance and future of Guile Ludovic Courtès
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jean Abou Samra @ 2021-12-13 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-devel, maximedevos, arne_bab; +Cc: wingo, ludo, Jonas Hahnfeld

Le 13/12/2021 à 23:18, Jean Abou Samra a écrit :
> I understand the cost of reviewing and I know that
> nobody is entitled to anything in the free software
> world.



Sorry, this is me non-native-speaker mixing up
terms. I meant _obligated_, of course!

Jean



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches)
  2021-12-13 22:18 Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches) Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
@ 2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2022-02-11  7:33   ` Catonano
  2021-12-15 10:20 ` Maintenance and future of Guile Ludovic Courtès
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2021-12-14  3:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jean Abou Samra; +Cc: wingo, ludo, Jonas Hahnfeld, maximedevos, guile-devel

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 652 bytes --]


Jean Abou Samra <jean@abou-samra.fr> writes:

> make it to the main branch. If the current maintainers
> need to drop their activity, it would be nice if
> they could share maintainership so that at least
> bug fixes can be applied.

I got the requirements for copyright assignment in place two weeks ago,
so I could offer to apply obviously good patches.

I’ll need push-permission for that, though.

I just filed a request for inclusion to the savannah project for that:
https://savannah.gnu.org/project/memberlist.php?group=guile

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-13 22:18 Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches) Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2021-12-15 10:20 ` Ludovic Courtès
  2021-12-16 21:15   ` Taylan Kammer
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2021-12-15 10:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jean Abou Samra; +Cc: wingo, arne_bab, Jonas Hahnfeld, maximedevos, guile-devel

Hello Guilers,

Jean Abou Samra <jean@abou-samra.fr> skribis:

> I see a number of similar cases on the mailing list.
>
> I understand the cost of reviewing and I know that
> nobody is entitled to anything in the free software
> world. However, I would like to voice the concern that
> Guile's maintenance is not scaling, and the project
> cannot attract new contributors if patches do not
> make it to the main branch. If the current maintainers
> need to drop their activity, it would be nice if
> they could share maintainership so that at least
> bug fixes can be applied.

I agree and I apologize for the unpleasant situation: it’s clear that I
haven’t been up to the task for several years already.  I’ll discuss
with Andy how I can formally leave the seat to someone with more energy,
whom I’ll be happy to help learn practices and conventions.

If someone is interested, please get in touch with us!

While Andy focuses on major improvements to the compiler and VM with a
long-term vision, I think it would be great to also have people on the
maintainer team focusing on more day-to-day operations: incremental
improvements, bug fixes, etc.  I think we’re lucky that there’ve been a
number of talented contributors chiming in over the last couple of
years; let’s take advantage of this, at last!

Thanks,
Ludo’.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-15 10:20 ` Maintenance and future of Guile Ludovic Courtès
@ 2021-12-16 21:15   ` Taylan Kammer
  2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Taylan Kammer @ 2021-12-16 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ludovic Courtès, Jean Abou Samra
  Cc: wingo, arne_bab, Jonas Hahnfeld, maximedevos, guile-devel

On 15.12.2021 11:20, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> 
> While Andy focuses on major improvements to the compiler and VM with a
> long-term vision, I think it would be great to also have people on the
> maintainer team focusing on more day-to-day operations: incremental
> improvements, bug fixes, etc.  I think we’re lucky that there’ve been a
> number of talented contributors chiming in over the last couple of
> years; let’s take advantage of this, at last!
> 

Sounds like a good idea.  Andy obviously does amazing work and I'm sure
I'm not the only one who's grateful for your contributions as well :-)
but having even some small patches for obvious bugfixes sit around for
months is a bit disheartening.

I won't apply because I don't feel like I'd be up to the task on a
technical level (my C skills in particular suck, my knowledge of Guile
internals is also quite limited) and I have way too many unfinished
projects plus a somewhat stressful 40h/week job...

But I would definitely like to contribute some small patches every now
and then if I know I'll get feedback / have them applied.

-- 
Taylan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-16 21:15   ` Taylan Kammer
@ 2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  2021-12-17 15:33       ` Artem Chernyak
  2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library @ 2021-12-17 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Taylan Kammer, Ludovic Courtès, Jean Abou Samra; +Cc: guile-devel

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15.12.2021 11:20, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> I won't apply because I don't feel like I'd be up to the task on a
> technical level (my C skills in particular suck, my knowledge of Guile
> internals is also quite limited) and I have way too many unfinished
> projects plus a somewhat stressful 40h/week job...
>
> But I would definitely like to contribute some small patches every now
> and then if I know I'll get feedback / have them applied.

I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
project?

-- 
Olivier Dion
Polymtl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
@ 2021-12-17 15:33       ` Artem Chernyak
  2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Artem Chernyak @ 2021-12-17 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Olivier Dion; +Cc: Ludovic Courtès, Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

I am in the same boat as Taylan and Olivier. My knowledge isn't up to
snuff to be a full fledged maintainer, but I would love to contribute
more.

I'm able to give 5-10 hours per week to whatever tasks we need to keep
things running smoothly.

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 9:19 AM Olivier Dion via Developers list for
Guile, the GNU extensibility library <guile-devel@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 15.12.2021 11:20, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> > I won't apply because I don't feel like I'd be up to the task on a
> > technical level (my C skills in particular suck, my knowledge of Guile
> > internals is also quite limited) and I have way too many unfinished
> > projects plus a somewhat stressful 40h/week job...
> >
> > But I would definitely like to contribute some small patches every now
> > and then if I know I'll get feedback / have them applied.
>
> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
> project?
>
> --
> Olivier Dion
> Polymtl
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  2021-12-17 15:33       ` Artem Chernyak
@ 2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
  2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2021-12-17 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Olivier Dion; +Cc: Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

Hi,

Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:

> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
> project?

Triage of bugs and patches is always welcome I guess, and communicating
what needs to be applied/addressed first to whoever can actually commit
it.  That’s one possible way to help.

Thanks,
Ludo’.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
@ 2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  2021-12-18 16:35           ` Taylan Kammer
  2021-12-21 14:27           ` Ludovic Courtès
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library @ 2021-12-17 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Taylan Kammer, Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:
>
>> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
>> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
>> project?
>
> Triage of bugs and patches is always welcome I guess, and communicating
> what needs to be applied/addressed first to whoever can actually commit
> it.  That’s one possible way to help.

Where can this be done?  I know that Guix is using debbugs, but do Guile
does the same or is it all tracked on Savannah?

Also, any way to help on the C side?

-- 
Olivier Dion
Polymtl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
@ 2021-12-18 16:35           ` Taylan Kammer
  2021-12-21 14:27           ` Ludovic Courtès
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Taylan Kammer @ 2021-12-18 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Olivier Dion, Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

On 17.12.2021 16:48, Olivier Dion wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:
>>
>>> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
>>> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
>>> project?
>>
>> Triage of bugs and patches is always welcome I guess, and communicating
>> what needs to be applied/addressed first to whoever can actually commit
>> it.  That’s one possible way to help.
> 
> Where can this be done?  I know that Guix is using debbugs, but do Guile
> does the same or is it all tracked on Savannah?
> 
> Also, any way to help on the C side?
> 

Guile also uses Debbugs:

https://bugs.gnu.org/guile

-- 
Taylan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
  2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  2021-12-18 16:35           ` Taylan Kammer
@ 2021-12-21 14:27           ` Ludovic Courtès
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2021-12-21 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Olivier Dion; +Cc: Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

Hi,

Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:
>>
>>> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
>>> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
>>> project?
>>
>> Triage of bugs and patches is always welcome I guess, and communicating
>> what needs to be applied/addressed first to whoever can actually commit
>> it.  That’s one possible way to help.
>
> Where can this be done?  I know that Guix is using debbugs, but do Guile
> does the same or is it all tracked on Savannah?

It’s happening on debbugs.gnu.org as well.  Debbugs this is easier to
work with via Emacs debbugs.el, which is nice if you already use Emacs
but otherwise unfortunate.

> Also, any way to help on the C side?

There isn’t much happening on the C side.  Maxime Devos submitted
patches adding bindings for openat(2) and friends that are unfortunately
still pending review.

Patches that add POSIX bindings and similar to libguile should in
general be relatively easy to review (though the openat(2) one may be
trickier because it’s a central functionality and we’d rather get the
interface right.)

Thanks,
Ludo’.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches)
  2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2022-02-11  7:33   ` Catonano
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Catonano @ 2022-02-11  7:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  Cc: guile-devel, Ludovic Courtès, maximedevos, Jean Abou Samra,
	Jonas Hahnfeld, Andy Wingo

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 792 bytes --]

Il giorno mar 14 dic 2021 alle ore 04:55 Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide <
arne_bab@web.de> ha scritto:

>
> Jean Abou Samra <jean@abou-samra.fr> writes:
>
> > make it to the main branch. If the current maintainers
> > need to drop their activity, it would be nice if
> > they could share maintainership so that at least
> > bug fixes can be applied.
>
> I got the requirements for copyright assignment in place two weeks ago,
> so I could offer to apply obviously good patches.
>
> I’ll need push-permission for that, though.
>
> I just filed a request for inclusion to the savannah project for that:
> https://savannah.gnu.org/project/memberlist.php?group=guile


You wrote this on Decembre 14th and now it's february 11th and I still
don't see you in the list of members

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-02-11  7:33 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-12-13 22:18 Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches) Jean Abou Samra
2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2022-02-11  7:33   ` Catonano
2021-12-15 10:20 ` Maintenance and future of Guile Ludovic Courtès
2021-12-16 21:15   ` Taylan Kammer
2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-17 15:33       ` Artem Chernyak
2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-18 16:35           ` Taylan Kammer
2021-12-21 14:27           ` Ludovic Courtès

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