Fwd: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe <stefan.itampe@gmail.com>]

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Stefan Israelsson Tampe <stefan.itampe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile
To: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>


Hi List,

I appreciate the work of all maintainers. I really hope that we can get a
solution to this situation.

Anyhow I think that the political question is really difficult and I
personally stay out of any judgement on all sides from
the lack of deep understanding. Let me just say that I understand both
views on the matter but I'm to ignorant to find out
where to best draw the line.

The best solution is to stop women and men being hurt by a partner and
still maintain a free though movement and allow
people who do not being hurt do whatever they like. My view of the world
though is that it is piss ugly in many ways and a
lot of human is being abused.

So I want to make the world a little better by sharing my work as free
code. And I hope that I will still see my favorite hackers
working on guile in the future as well. I will certainly not put a
judgement on either side of the fence, and hope that the politics
stays out of my favorite scheme environment.

Please maintainers, dig down the ax, and concentrate to do whatever you can
to make the world a little better by
exposing your great nonpolitical computer poetry to the world.

Then on the political side, fight it on political sites, for a better world
of cause, that I support.

Regards
Stefan





On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:15 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> This is response to:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00005.html
>
> Dear Andy,
>
> No, I do not think that conflicst affect GNU Guile. I think you are
> the one affecting GNU Guile and GNU community and Guix community.
>
> That you are now using Guile mailing list to promote defamation of RMS
> and to mix private political opinions of Dr. Richard Stallman with GNU
> Guile project is disgrace.
>
> GNU project is apolitical and never was political.
>
> Dr. Richard Stallman has his blog and political views outside of the
> GNU Project and FSF and those views do not represent neither GNU nor
> FSF.
>
> You have your own blog outside of the GNU project, so please stick to
> your blog, write your stuff outside, do not send stuff to GNU Guile
> list.
>
> It was you who started mixing Guix with politics, and you and Ludovic
> Courtès who started mixing jokes with feminism, feminism with GNU and
> so on.
>
> Please refer to GNU kind communication guidelines to stick to free
> software philosophy. Your blog does not show that you are promoting
> free software philosophy, you promote software, but not free software
> philosophy, and I can by that way think of you as only as programmer.
>
> Yet your logical skills and research skills are down to zero related
> to Dr. Richard Stallman.
>
> Your integrity is down to zero, as instead that you appreciat all the
> donations and facilities as provided by RMS as that is his creation,
> you are spitting and dividing the same community that you are
> pretending to support.
>
> You are traitor of the GNU project and GNU communication guidelines.
>
> You are traitor of Guix good code of conduct that shall create
> harassment friendly environment.
>
> * Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> [2019-10-16 09:14]:
> > In the last few weeks, a conversation among GNU maintainers that has
> > been simmering for years burst into public.  For a while it resubmerged
> > into private GNU lists, but now it has resurfaced to affect the Guile
> > project.
>
> Please do not generalize, those are not "GNU maintainers" those are
> few people who have been invited by Andy Wingo, you and your good
> friend Ludovic Courtès to join on the rumor mongering accusation
> inflation that you have published on Guix pages.
>
> That is disgrace for you personally, disgrace for Ludo, disgrace for
> Guix and GNU and the FSF.
>
> > Just for background information, I wrote about my thoughts here:
> >
> >   https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu
>
> And I have written responses on that, so why not have some balls and
> refer to responses as well?
>
> See:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/dgelag/thoughts_on_rms_and_gnu_wingolog/f3eglgb/
>
> You have no arguments really to backup your accusations.
>
> > The summary is that, like many people in GNU, I have long treated
>
> I am sorry, please stop with generalizations in your statements.
>
> Saying "many people" is anti-social characterization, please be
> specific and name people, do not give false impression that many
> people support you, as they don't.
>
> > However, recent events made me realize this approach was not only unfair
> > to newcomers, but unjust as well, as by continuing to work on GNU and
> > not saying anything, I was both lending unmerited prestige to RMS,
> > enabling his creepy behavior towards women, and additionally, enabling
> > his apparent pedophilia-advocacy.
>
> That is incorrect. That is your twisted and biased opinion which has
> foundation in your educational background. I have got impression that
> you have never ever understood what free speech means. And you have
> not legally understood what is defamation and slander of character.
>
> You are bringing criminal acts into GNU Guile mailing list. Please
> refrain doing so.
>
> > Regarding this latter point, I wasn't really aware that this was a view
> > RMS was promoting, but I am ashamed to admit that I had heard rumors
> > that Richard publically advocated sex between adults and teenagers,
> > defended sexual harassers, and questioned the experience of victims of
> > sexual assault, and I preferred not to listen.
>
> Your statements are generalized, twisted and distorted. You are doing
> this only to justify the harm you have done to the community and to
> make your "right" in your own eyes.
>
> You have betrayed the principles of good behavior in the community,
> you have harmed both Guix, and GNU, and Guile community and you are
> only trying to justify and "prove" how right you are.
>
> I do believe you are good person, truly I do, I just know that you are
> young and naive, and I am kicking my head into the wall for reasons
> that one programmer like you cannot differentiate what RMS really
> said. As I considered programmers always in general having sense of
> logics and differentiation.
>
> To differentiate is a test of intelligence.
>
> To identify things with each other, without seeing differences is a
> test of stupidity.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#26_May_2017_(Prudish_ignorantism)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#29_October_2017_(Pestering_women)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-nov-feb.html#27_November_2017_(Roy_Moore's_relationships)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#30_April_2018_(UN_peacekeepers_in_South_Sudan)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#17_July_2018_(The_bullshitter's_flirting)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#21_August_2018_(Age_and_attraction)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_(Cody_Wilson)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-sep-dec.html#6_November_2018_(Sex_according_to_porn)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#14_February_2019_(Respecting_peoples_right_to_say_no)
> >
> https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_2019_(Stretching_meaning_of_terms)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#12_June_2019_(Declining_sex_rates)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#30_July_2019_(Al_Franken)
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#27_August_2019_(Me-too_frenzy)
>
> That website is www.stallman.org and expresses private political notes
> of Dr. Richard Stallman, expressly not related to neither FSF nor GNU
> project.
>
> In fact, by bringing those links into GNU project, which is financed
> by FSF and which is published on GNU.ORG domain that belongs to FSF,
> you are endangering the FSF's non-profit status, as non-profit in the
> USA is not supposed to engage in any political campaigns, and it is
> just matter of time when somebody can escalate situation that the tax
> office thinks it is engageing in some of your own proposed political
> movements which are outside of the scope of free software philsophy.
>
> Please refrain of promoting that RMS ever published anything of his
> personal views and politics on GNU project.
>
> Differentiate between the personal viewpoints and GNU project.
>
> GNU project is apolitical, RMS keeps it apolitical and as you know
> from last 6-7 days, you have got all the responses to stop with
> politics in GNU project and come back to kind communication.
>
> Just as Red Cross organization GNU project is apolitical. Only
> politics is free software and human rigths for users of software.
>
> Let me comment on each of these links:
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#26_May_2017_(Prudish_ignorantism)
>
> That is RMS's viewpoint and that is on the level of thinking that you
> will maybe get in next 30 years. Young people are simple labeled as
> young for reason of their inadequate sense to understand subjects that
> are beyond their current educational capacity.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#29_October_2017_(Pestering_women)
>
> Ha hhah ha.
>
> Look Andy, let me say, if you do not understand what is said on that
> link, I would have really hard time being your next kind or room mate,
> or your husband or wife -- I would really have hard time. Man you are
> picky!
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-nov-feb.html#27_November_2017_(Roy_Moore's_relationships)
>
> Ooh, Andy, you are member of the Thoughpolice[1] Squad, you are going
> through the Archive.org like the stallman.org is going to disappear
> any time soon, and you are presenting views of Stallman like
> Thoughtcrime[2].
>
> I am really afraid of people like you. Would you be in Stasi, East
> German former secret police, you would be really kicking asses for
> people' thoughtcrime!
>
> Well done Andy! You are doing it by the book 1984[3].
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#30_April_2018_(UN_peacekeepers_in_South_Sudan)
>
> That is comment by RMS where RMS clearly condemns the rape and
> protests against inaccurate journalism.
>
> The same type of wanna-be journalism as from Andy Wingo blog.
>
> So what you wish to say? Your blog is good journalism? And the link
> that RMS is referring to is good journalism? LOL
>
> Why don't you comment to RMS? This is not place to discuss RMS
> viewpoints in GNU Guile as RMS keeps his personal notes, and he is
> entitled to his free speech (something you forgot) and he does not mix
> it with GNU Guile.
>
> So why are you again dividing community and bringing to everbody in
> GNU Guile attention to personal private political notes of RMS which
> everybody can anyway read on his blog?
>
> That is not welcome in GNU project. Do you get it?
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#17_July_2018_(The_bullshitter's_flirting)
>
> Yes, thank you, but the blog is open for everybody to read. Personal
> political notes of Dr. Richard Stallman are not related to FSF neither
> to GNU project.
>
> What somebody thinks beyond apolitical GNU project is their free
> speech human right, and I would like to ask you to respect other
> people's opinions and refrain from bringing politics into GNU project.
>
> GNU project is not about politics.
>
> RMS keeps political notes outside, keep it too.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#21_August_2018_(Age_and_attraction)
>
> That was a scientific study. Do you have any arguments to dispute the
> scientific study?
>
> Have you done yourself some other scientific work to dispute the
> study?
>
> If not, refrain, please do not bring politics and scientific studies
> and arguments about which woman is attractive or not attractive into
> the GNU Project.
>
> GNU project is about free software and operating system where freedom
> zero is for everybody to use it as they wish.
>
> For haven's sake not all the planet is your planet Andy, if you don't
> find 18 years old girls attractive and your protest against that, that
> is your opinion and your viewpoint. That does not fit into GNU
> project, we are welcoming everybody:
>
> - including people who have ANY kind of political view points
>   outside of GNU project,
>
> - we are welcoming Andy Wingo, regardless of their view points beyond
>   GNU project
>
> - we are welcoming people who respect scientific studies of
>   attractiveness of young women and those who do not respect them
>
> - we are welcoming feminists and those who are not feminists, but GNU
>   project DOES NOT PROMOTE ANY KIND OF PARTISANSHIP, GNU project is
>   non-partisan, apolitical project to create a free software operating
>   system, and such can be used by everybody.
>
> By the way, I can fully agree with the scientific study as it relates
> to me very much, I find girls attractive in that age.
>
> Do you know that in many countries on this planet younger girls are
> married to man older for 10-20 and even more years and that is fine
> in many societies. In those societies there are many more people than
> in the United States. They could not care less what you are speaking
> about.
>
> You are not speaking for the planet. You cannot as you did not travel
> enough, did not meet many people.
>
> Cambodia is prime example where girls of 16 years wish to get married
> to people of 40-60 years, and where it is considered great,
> attractive -- and same cannot be said for your environment.
>
> But you cannot bring those viewpoints into the GNU project.
>
> We do not care if you find 18 years old girls attractive or not, that
> is not free software philosophy.
>
> Please refrain of introducing your political viewpoints into GNU
> Guile.
>
> Please refrain of politicizing GNU project!
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_(Cody_Wilson)
>
> Yes, that is well said by RMS. He is person who has sense to
> distinguish between the meanings of words. He does not identify every
> meaning with every meaning.
>
> Remember what I said to you? Ability to differentiate =
> intelligence. Disability to differentitate is making us stupid.
>
> RMS is spekaing of the meaning in the word "sexual assault". Yet his
> political viewpoints and ranting about online articles have nothing to
> do with the FSF neither GNU nor Guile.
>
> Thus you should refrain of publishing and introducing various types of
> politics into GNU Guile programming language.
>
> I am sorry for you, and I hope you will soon start to differentiate
> between the GNU Guile project that is apolitical and political notes
> of ANYBODY beyond this community.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-sep-dec.html#6_November_2018_(Sex_according_to_porn)
>
> "The unrealistic picture of sex presented in most porn harms men as
> well as women in their sex lives (though in different ways). Their
> sexual miseducation starts in adolescence, but many never learn
> better. " -- now you are introducing RMS political notes on porn.
>
> Wow, Andy, I am fascinated how much you are sex focused, but let me
> remind you:
>
> - this is GNU project
>
> - GNU project shall remain FREE of your porn viewpoints or RMS
>   viewpoints
>
> - RMS did not introduce any political notes into GNU project neither
>   FSF, you are introducing it
>
> - if you have troubles that RMS thinks that porn harms men as well as
>   women in their sex lives, and you like porn, and you have different
>   viewpoint then why don't you say so to RMS on his own website
>   www.stallman.org as he keeps his political notes outside of GNU
>   project. So please consider discussing porn with RMS and not
>   introducing porn political views into this GNU project.
>
> GNU project is welcoming everybody, as we do not mind if somebody is
> watching porn or not watching porn, GNU project does not mind what is
> viewpoint of RMS on porn and if he thinks it harms people, and we do
> not mind if you think it different, it really does not matter.
>
> GNU project is about free software operating system.
>
> It is apolitical.
>
> Only politics in GNU project is free software politics.
>
> Andy, please keep it porn viewpoints-free.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#14_February_2019_(Respecting_peoples_right_to_say_no)
>
> Now you are discussing personal notes of RMS and his thinking of
> attractiveness.
>
> My dear Andy, if you have some not yet revealed in public hidden ideas
> you wish to tell to RMS, why not tell him?
>
> There is no place for rumor mongering in GNU project. Stick to GNU
> Guile subject, do not introduce attractiveness or non-attractiveness
> into GNU project.
>
> It should be by now clear that your intention is not good.
>
> You have no good intentions, and your intention is harassing and
> defaming Dr. Richard Stallman for the sake of GNU Guile project, for
> the damage to Guix, for the damage to GNU and for division of
> community.
>
> You simply don't care.
>
> >
> https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_2019_(Stretching_meaning_of_terms)
>
> So RMS said: " Should we accept stretching the terms "sexual abuse"
> and "molestation" to include looking without touching?  I do not
> accept it. "
>
> What is it that you do not understand?
>
> Please Andy, do not introduce your sex focused view points into GNU
> Guile. GNU Guile is programming language and its mailing list shall
> remain your-sex-viewpoints-free.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#12_June_2019_(Declining_sex_rates)
>
> Now you are ranting against declining sex rates and RMS's viewpoint on
> declining sex rates.
>
> Please Andy, could you you refrain of introducing your viewpoints on
> declining sex rates into GNU project?
>
> RMS does not do that, why are you doing it?
>
> Is your intention to divide community?
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#30_July_2019_(Al_Franken)
>
> That is again RMS's view point on expressions in journalism related to
> term "sexual assault".
>
> Could you please leave that out of GNU Guile project and GNU project
> and please take out of my life, if you have comments to say to RMS,
> tell him personally, or rant on your web.
>
> Please keep GNU community undivided, apolitical, promoting free
> software philosophy, and not your view points if terms "sexual
> assault" shall be used or shall not be used, just comment outside of
> GNU web space.
>
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#27_August_2019_(Me-too_frenzy)
>
> And there RMS said:
>
> "In "me-too" frenzy, crossed signals about sex can easily be inflated
> into "rape". If people rush to judgment, in an informal way, that can
> destroy a man's career without any trial in which to clear his name. "
> -- which is absolutely true, and which is exact same thing you are
> doing to defame and slander RMS for this exact same viewpoint.
>
> Please refrain of dividing GNU community for your own political
> views. If you have something to say to RMS, tell to RMS, that is
> outside of scope of GNU Guile, Guix, GNU project in itself.
>
> And after your defaming links of links of RMS where you clearly
> expressed that your intention is not to promote free software
> philosophy, let me then reference what Dr. Richard Stallman is doing
> while promoting free software:
>
> Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free
> software, in this example in the heart of Microsoft:
>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/
>
> That Microsoft took over the Github is already great deal and RMS is
> teaching them how to police the licensing issues. Very good.
>
> Please show example from your side how you promoted free software? It
> would give some weight to your ranting.
>
> He teaches the world on free software, this time in Russia, August
> 2019. There is nice Emacs Virgin joke that nobody finds offensive,
> this is planet, and people like jokes, there is also the Emacs Saint
> joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA
>
> Dr. Richard Stallman provides policies and planning for GNU project, and
> he has done so successfuly for many years.
>
> See:
> My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE
>
> There are facts in that video explained.
>
> More facts:
> https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
>
> Look at the case study of Ambedkar Community Computing Center, where
> Richard Stallman promoted free software and did something for all
> India. One of the underprivileged kids who attends classes at the
> Center has achieved a high level of skill in the use of GIMP. His
> works have been presented and sold at a local Free Software
> conference. The picture on the right shows him handing in to Richard
> Stallman a copy of an essay titled “The Future is Ours”, which was
> produced at the Center.
>
> Look at video:
> https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-software-gimp.html#Mani
>
> Free software changed life of those people.
>
> That is accomplishment of Richard Stallman, the GNU project and Free
> Software Foundation.
>
> Look more accomplishments:
> https://www.gnu.org/education/edu-cases-india-irimpanam.html
>
> Look at article of Dr. V. Sasi Kumar, The Education System in India,
> with accomplishment to use free software at many places in India.
>
> Do you think that is a "coincidence"? Do you know that Richard
> Stallman enlightened former president of India A. P. J. Abdul Kalam on
> free software and then President promoted and recommended free
> software to wide population?
>
> See:
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/ilugjammu/home/a-p-j-kalam-r-stallman-dicussion-on-open-source
> https://www.linux.com/news/richard-stallman-meets-president-india/
>
> Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman (RMS) was in Denmark
> in May 2019.
>
> After a visit to the beach in nearby Slettestrand the day before, RMS
> went to Aalborg, where he delivered his speech “Free software and your
> freedom”1 at Aalborg University (AAU), on May 6th.
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/photo-blog-2019-may-aalborg-copenhagen
>
> Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman (RMS) was in Brno,
> Czech Republic, on June 6, 2019, to give two speeches.
>
> In the morning, he took part in the URBIS Smart City Fair, at the Brno
> Fair Grounds, giving his speech "Computing, freedom, and privacy."1
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/photo-blog-2019-june-brno
>
> Free Software Foundation president Richard Stallman (RMS) went on a
> 12-city visit to Brazil and Argentina this past May and June. The trip took
> him…
>
> …to the Federal Institute of São Paulo, in Araraquara, São Paulo,
> Brazil, where, on May 14th, he gave his speech "A Free Digital
> Society."1 The event was well attended, with universities and schools
> from neighboring cities having organized to shuttle their students to
> it by bus.
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/may-2018-photos-from-brazil-and-argentina
>
>  RMS in The Guardian: “A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe”
> by Dana Morgenstein — Published on Apr 09, 2018 10:23 AM
>
> Here at the Free Software Foundation (FSF), we're never surprised when
> another violation of privacy by Facebook or other bad actors is
> exposed: it has long since been obvious that Facebook is a gold mine
> for government surveillance and advertisers. However, we also
> recognize that social media has become a crucial part of everyday
> life, which is why we urge you to ditch Facebook and instead utilize
> freedom-respecting, distributed, user-controlled services like GNU
> social, Mastodon, or Diaspora.
>
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/rms-in-the-guardian-201ca-radical-proposal-to-keep-your-personal-data-safe201d-1
>
> January was a relatively quiet month for FSF president Richard Stallman
> (RMS), so we're taking this opportunity to look back on a few speeches that
> RMS gave last year and that we did not get a chance to report on.
>
> On February 6th, 2017, RMS was at Reykjavík University, in Reykjavík,
> Iceland, to give his speech “Free software: For your freedom and
> privacy,” to about 200 people.
>
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/photo-blog-2017-retrospective-reykjavik-eastlansing-potsdam-montreal-salta
>
> You are putting focus on your sexual or asexual viewpoints, whatever
> rants you have against RMS, speak to him as he keeps his personal
> political notes outside of GNU project.
>
> I am putting focus on free software and promotion of free software, if
> you have something to say in that regard let me know. But your blog is
> speaking for itself, it is rumor mongering factory, and I am very very
> sorry for your state of mind, you must be troubled, you have no calm
> sleep, and all what you are trying to do is to justify the harm that
> you are doing to this community.
>
> Same is valid for your Thoughtpolice Squad on Guix pages.
>
> > Yours in free software,
> >
> > Andy
>
> I don't trust you.
>
>
> Jean Louis
>
>
> Footnotes:
> [1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police
>
> [2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime
>
> [3]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
>
>
>

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