From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mikael Djurfeldt Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 11:20:18 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> <87a79y3lq3.fsf@netris.org> Reply-To: mikael@djurfeldt.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000042688e05952bd870" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="63343"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: Andy Wingo , =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , guile-devel To: Mark H Weaver Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 18 11:22:30 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLOSr-000GMi-NC for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 11:22:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36954 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iLOSq-0001Kb-9F for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 05:22:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45326) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iLOQy-0000BO-3S for guile-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 05:20:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iLOQw-0002bu-JX for guile-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 05:20:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com ([209.85.217.54]:37001) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iLOQu-0002ay-Lb; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 05:20:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id p13so3574557vsr.4; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 02:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GtkZ0JFf4u3/PDDglKHGJsBYvozI3snJR6nqeJTsH9c=; b=pZg3Ft/dqtKn2Vp7u92z1hRezVN0QX+dOE7XEQP60LxVCRgw9srNkp336U4nofSX8X M/jyIqCVnFTNxnxlBj4dfr6fkfv73LeE0z7xq+ENQmJwdLBGEQ47hTaWfiWR/wGznqEE 5eh+feQpeNYUGtA6ms75cU+jD07Zy+LWFXwLWuttfCk89tKdxMjByt0qNQIn2AHGiILP qxpk4p4UUwVHwro8Rhjmvfm6KglCHcf1dyaVbhZaxwuK/v0sw6P4O7HUd9vlGfl6ztpj cWGtCqKZ/S0qh4yDY1fuTN29Np00R9auN6XO47TYKu1vFjKFDRWp20Ocve4fbar9sRYx RJfw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUS/afHqFgfS7ysgepyzed+HtTnlxCwP9f3ZRWBTO+PaAvDvRFc Pp3G3TpDGsL+ABsFKQGX4hvas86B/SjTLg0Aais= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlxhWXcH1Jqj77myUoGwWJr3qbmdyU16LnmBgX0+FrgyQ9reflF2LB0cxxqYEA09briYEw66Wu7AijR0QvsQQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:8841:: with SMTP id k62mr4963286vsd.101.1571390427914; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 02:20:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87a79y3lq3.fsf@netris.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 209.85.217.54 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:20103 Archived-At: --00000000000042688e05952bd870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" For what it's worth: Then I of course retract what I said about RMS not showing good leadership by not consulting with Andy and Ludovic. I still support the initiative to find a new governing structure for GNU. Note also that both the GNU maintainers statement and RMS himself talk about new governing structure for GNU (RMS by saying that there has to be good leadership when he is gone). Maybe there is common ground here? I also realize that I didn't answer Andy's question about the relationship between Guile and GNU: To me, Mike Gran's message was insightful. Read that carefully. I also note that I'm using GNU tools every day, so it must mean something. Best regards, Mikael On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:08 AM Mark H Weaver wrote: > Hello all, > > I just realized that I made a mistake, and my mistake has caused people > to strongly condemn RMS for something that he did not actually do. > > RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer. To my knowledge, the > only thing he has done so far is to *ask* me if I wanted to be appointed > co-maintainer. I answered "yes", but I've not yet received any further > messages from him on this topic. I also note that I'm not listed as a > maintainer in the official list of maintainers. > > I misinterpreted RMS's question as an offer, and that was my mistake. > The fault is mine, and mine alone. RMS should not be blamed for it. > > Mark > > > Andy Wingo wrote: > > Still, it was with surprise that I woke up this morning to a request > > from Mark to re-join the Guile project on Savannah, saying that RMS had > > appointed Mark to become co-maintainer, and that Mark assented -- "given > > recent events". > > > > Now, Richard has no idea about Guile or how it works either technically > > or socially, and has not consulted with me as Guile maintainer, nor to > > my knowledge did he consult with Ludovic. > > "Thompson, David" wrote: > > But now that I know that the truth is that RMS, as chief nuisance, put > > Mark back into this role without the consent of either active Guile > > co-maintainer, and without even telling them, I am extremely > > disappointed and I do not approve. > > Christopher Lemmer Webber wrote: > > I'm extremely saddened to see RMS pull this move. It seriously > > undermines faith for maintainers of GNU projects that ther is any > > semblance of fair governance, and that the rug can't be pulled out from > > under their feet at any time. > > --00000000000042688e05952bd870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For what it's worth:

The= n I of course retract what I said about RMS not showing good leadership by = not consulting with Andy and Ludovic. I still support the initiative to fin= d a new governing structure for GNU. Note also that both the GNU maintainer= s statement and RMS himself talk about new governing structure for GNU (RMS= by saying that there has to be good leadership when he is gone). Maybe the= re is common ground here?

I also realize that = I didn't answer Andy's question about the relationship between Guil= e and GNU:

To me, Mike Gran's message was insi= ghtful. Read that carefully. I also note that I'm using GNU tools every= day, so it must mean something.

Best regards,
Mikael

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:08 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
Hello all,

I just realized that I made a mistake, and my mistake has caused people
to strongly condemn RMS for something that he did not actually do.

RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer.=C2=A0 To my knowledge, the=
only thing he has done so far is to *ask* me if I wanted to be appointed co-maintainer.=C2=A0 I answered "yes", but I've not yet recei= ved any further
messages from him on this topic.=C2=A0 I also note that I'm not listed = as a
maintainer in the official list of maintainers.

I misinterpreted RMS's question as an offer, and that was my mistake. The fault is mine, and mine alone.=C2=A0 RMS should not be blamed for it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark


Andy Wingo <wingo@p= obox.com> wrote:
> Still, it was with surprise that I woke up this morning to a request > from Mark to re-join the Guile project on Savannah, saying that RMS ha= d
> appointed Mark to become co-maintainer, and that Mark assented -- &quo= t;given
> recent events".
>
> Now, Richard has no idea about Guile or how it works either technicall= y
> or socially, and has not consulted with me as Guile maintainer, nor to=
> my knowledge did he consult with Ludovic.

"Thompson, David" <dthompson2@worcester.edu> wrote:
> But now that I know that the truth is that RMS, as chief nuisance, put=
> Mark back into this role without the consent of either active Guile > co-maintainer, and without even telling them, I am extremely
> disappointed and I do not approve.

Christopher Lemmer Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> wrote:
> I'm extremely saddened to see RMS pull this move.=C2=A0 It serious= ly
> undermines faith for maintainers of GNU projects that ther is any
> semblance of fair governance, and that the rug can't be pulled out= from
> under their feet at any time.

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