From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mikael Djurfeldt Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:21:56 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> Reply-To: mikael@djurfeldt.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067c21505950c0420" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="68707"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: guile-devel To: Andy Wingo Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 16 21:22:29 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iKosO-000HlU-G0 for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 21:22:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47334 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKosN-0000Xn-8J for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:22:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60837) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKos8-0000XD-Gm for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:22:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKos7-00010h-04 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:22:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-f41.google.com ([209.85.217.41]:43850) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKos6-00010G-Qy for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:22:10 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-f41.google.com with SMTP id b1so16369721vsr.10 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VKG8vIrAlNll5f0e+mJceLBb4rZLsiqwhgcfpwGCDCc=; b=Ui0CA09G0APbhFqqVk+HCtXpvh1cJkZcaQQH48K8uImpoKD4R53QdLZKmtEuePeke0 97VAyHpfFX3D6jcmw7VIzMTZ2t1g5hM+Nxf89JkBPth2lM4IfB1ERU3UC2MzPo+gYHBk wfUHL217PlHxgd5J4/cfcgWbM4k9nDPzBPFFnJFFXJA/yPgn8KTAiKU+ooroEs+1toTE 8++IsOa7mdB898CtHYt4DU6CN25OvIjQ4mqeBgCQMpAjn5Q9Y8Gs1fLmTXuov5n2lsOu fbIJ2jY/DhETfRPuR4s37Gk/MCmfEHYnNYWB08GlLmFi2OBT2kxCC2gFygabn3M4aZBb 0J5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUp3RS+pKI3hK8cOgOOtsnatv4wGoAogmU7FVQJ8ybmiUrw/jS/ gfJNjKhQ3ynjrOsLgB9+dYKdrIhyipYtyPOzgl4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyx/WjbCwcT0cik8UpklQoIKUoiG/4rHIHSIkqYdwh74o1NkssvcdMTFTNwcnFNXnn9JMRdEnEljIEnXXzbUbw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:2cc1:: with SMTP id s184mr25692296vss.24.1571253729606; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 209.85.217.41 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:20079 Archived-At: --00000000000067c21505950c0420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Andy, Ludovic and everyone else, As a previous co-maintainer of Guile, it saddens me that you/we have run into these kind of difficulties. It's especially sad since, as also David wrote, Guile has always been a project with a friendly atmosphere. What I wish for is that everyone involved in this conflict make their best effort to find a good way forward, and in particular, a way that can preserve the valuable social assets of Guile. My own viewpoint of recent events around RMS is that he is a special kind of person with his own kind of strengths and weaknesses. Yes, it's quite clear that project leadership and management is not his strength, but at the same time he is the root of the free software movement with a fantastic legacy. I'm also fascinated by how often what he has said, and which at the time might have caused many rolling eyes, eventually have turned out to be correct. So, also here, I'm sad that there is not enough room in present day society to accommodate a person like RMS. I would have wished for him to end celebrated. Even though I'm myself strongly for the causes of women and obviously completely against any form of child abuse, I think that it is possible to disagree with some of RMS statements without judging him too harshly. I take a risk in saying that it is certainly possible to see his perspective and arguments in his defence of Minsky, even if one disagrees and thinks that he has left some aspects of the situation out. Then there is the question of leadership. I don't think that it was good timing of the GNU maintainers to go forward with their initiative at this precise point in time. But I welcome it in other respects and now that it is out in the open, I think you maintainers should go forward with it and try to achieve a more reasonable governing structure in GNU. I wish you good luck with that. With the timing you chose it will be harder, but I hope for you to succeed. Regarding Guile, I have a very high confidence in Andy and Ludovic and think the Guile project should regard itself very lucky to have such maintainers. I wasn't aware of the differences between Andy and Mark and also have a very high appreciation of Mark's careful work. But I think it is clear to most people that it is not good leadership by RMS to appoint Mark as co-maintainer without consulting with Andy and Ludovic. Under normal circumstances, a leader can do such things, but given the current situation, with the well motivated request for a new governing structure, my point of view is that it is Andy and Ludovic who currently rows this boat. Andy and Ludovic, you have my full support. Please stick with Guile, but please also keep your calm and talk a lot to key people to try to resolve this situation in a good way (which of course does not mean letting your hands be tied). Best regards, Mikael --00000000000067c21505950c0420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andy, Ludovic and everyone else,

As a previous co-maintainer of Guile, it saddens me that you/we hav= e run into these kind of difficulties. It's especially sad since, as al= so David wrote, Guile has always been a project with a friendly atmosphere.= What I wish for is that everyone involved in this conflict make their best= effort to find a good way forward, and in particular, a way that can prese= rve the valuable social assets of Guile.

My ow= n viewpoint of recent events around RMS is that he is a special kind of per= son with his own kind of strengths and weaknesses. Yes, it's quite clea= r that project leadership and management is not his strength, but at the sa= me time he is the root of the free software movement with a fantastic legac= y. I'm also fascinated by how often what he has said, and which at the = time might have caused many rolling eyes, eventually have turned out to be = correct. So, also here, I'm sad that there is not enough room in presen= t day society to accommodate a person like RMS. I would have wished for him= to end celebrated. Even though I'm myself strongly for the causes of w= omen and obviously completely against any form of child abuse, I think that= it is possible to disagree with some of RMS statements without judging him= too harshly. I take a risk in saying that it is certainly possible to see = his perspective and arguments in his defence of Minsky, even if one disagre= es and thinks that he has left some aspects of the situation out.

Then there is the question of leadership. I don't think= that it was good timing of the GNU maintainers to go forward with their in= itiative at this precise point in time. But I welcome it in other respects = and now that it is out in the open, I think you maintainers should go forwa= rd with it and try to achieve a more reasonable governing structure in GNU.= I wish you good luck with that. With the timing you chose it will be harde= r, but I hope for you to succeed.

Regarding Gu= ile, I have a very high confidence in Andy and Ludovic and think the Guile = project should regard itself very lucky to have such maintainers. I wasn= 9;t aware of the differences between Andy and Mark and also have a very hig= h appreciation of Mark's careful work. But I think it is clear to most = people that it is not good leadership by RMS to appoint Mark as co-maintain= er without consulting with Andy and Ludovic. Under normal circumstances, a = leader can do such things, but given the current situation, with the well m= otivated request for a new governing structure, my point of view is that it= is Andy and Ludovic who currently rows this boat.

Andy and Ludovic, you have my full support. Please stick with Guile, but p= lease also keep your calm and talk a lot to key people to try to resolve th= is situation in a good way (which of course does not mean letting your hand= s be tied).

Best regards,
Mikael
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