From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Arne Babenhauserheide Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: Logo baseline Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:11:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87wo9n4ju7.fsf@web.de> References: <87a76kx3g2.fsf@gnu.org> <87lfq49vka.fsf@web.de> <87lfq3u1x6.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="47403"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 Cc: Andy Wingo , guile-devel@gnu.org To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 19 15:12:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1itBJZ-000CIo-V6 for guile-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:12:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50530 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1itBJY-0004T4-PL for guile-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:12:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1itBIj-0004Sw-8Z for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:11:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1itBIi-0008Qh-2F for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:11:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:43803) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1itBIf-0008OI-6q; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:11:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1579443089; bh=o9frEr7YyyqihpKCfLqjVxe0jfPCRuSkZBTE6fnAHPc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=r2lIgZHZM0EaKG4Fq0Rh2O7Oz1hrEaFinh15m75M6A68Hintb1/M1EkIjQYqmQQPS QBxsBzkWdmft+BiCkt3hvx1RtHw833WgjfM/TVnubqkvryZjRtr8Xv0RwULv/X8oUG mzbO93oMi7Eukp966UoO5ZZnfxnvTfG4w68kNI/k= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Original-Received: from fluss ([84.165.17.138]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb101 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Llna8-1jSW370g3U-00ZOAR; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:11:29 +0100 In-reply-to: <87lfq3u1x6.fsf@gnu.org> X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Ej8CqtP8C+f87Fq5wiofjL2w0wW5hhi5vesxOXuCiMYAdeK9XxC Mu8KVoKCYOAp5hEqgpffeFjnpFLG1dgP6vP2A0XdmbeXb8bX310iLUZEgRvCmadRsdt/Aah beB6QV42qZXTY6KFdcPT8LZSds2B78eipkHUsHcMkzWfemZAv9Py/S4cat6U0MSaSmCxZVr TQhFE8KAnGjkH3qb2AFcg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+ohalUmA4hY=:chnMG5xC+eyVOgouSxTl9j Pxg5e9MIl8vfTlbUywcEGM5i0JwSJpp4B6WNdvnLJZbRlOMGoG0ojZUvtC1DQlctUuGVe+4S0 CIQAGl0qKClbhF6QiSPv/zcEw14rISgvt+6MHy12M2/TTHktWbaIpuZbgfB25aPB3mmk828lW 432nCOgkXQGuHp5v0y2b/Iu3pa2fqaLNq1zeqNnpJsTawcIR3UtjZQ2q45J3OgZO9WYrLwOEr EvhUrNlsJfbaQ7tloLIWFAaEDYpqNl0jnGpsEDSQ3RkD3KIto0Vh9cVviL6D57KvdCAM5zNPM Ob98Op0ADSmADza+5ZvYvIEuPEjhQFcjtNux5ySqjpAumD2QUr00J2WFUDjZ0QzVTahmt4R8V EUALJotTIk9DH1qyB36GHZXalJiip1X/+AzQnf27WjUtad/itJFyKhZYMlMGddfNEr8qWaSG3 kpoz6/PpZ4Qkx/mvs5RULtd6IGFdlWNLf8Qt+w0dHod6HDM23wM2r4mKGf4vy6wDp9g6vxYvH VU2XINeBSm0iCVgtulmoRhfB2K4P02Rm9ND6MA7KTSnm7t/tuEKGSNCPMqQ7KGWU8D98DOUsI XFYQyCe0+Vx+Q7F3Ql6PLc53NGr+NnBjNUdN8es8ZWdd7cvzCG9rrxteCau7um/I84TaIZiX0 NM0B/C9KjtjV7Zr7dILXofZa3FqrZAYy+FPThvKn4bSsOENJceE65noiMvEywBr/cWtFLjztw RpoBoaoHPuzZ6JnTSJ+DZoAlSqV+UUQGTjWa37fThH+WjeLcAZlwJY96hYfMwRASCCwlGIP+ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.12 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.devel:20308 Archived-At: Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > Like I wrote, Guile remains an extension language, no argument here. > > However, describing it as =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D an extension language se= ems odd to me. > It doesn=E2=80=99t take into account what many have been doing with Guile= , and > it doesn=E2=80=99t match the efforts that have gone into Guile since 2.0. I don=E2=80=99t think that it is described as "just" an extension language.= The website makes it very clear that Guile is also a viable application language. Where do you get the impression that Guile is described as "just" an extension language? >> That Guile takes effort to make extending easy distinguishes Guile >> from all the just-scripting languages out there, and also from many >> other Schemes. > > I don=E2=80=99t find embeddability to be that much of a salient feature. = After > all, CPython, Script-Fu, Lua, ECL, GJS, etc. all fit into that category. CPython isn=E2=80=99t really nice to embed. Blender managers, but otherwise= I don=E2=80=99t see much good integration. Isn=E2=80=99t Script-Fu a tinyscheme =E2=80=94 with much fewer capabilities= than Guile? Lua does hit the same, but has less default functionality. > Other adjectives I proposed (fast, functional) don=E2=80=99t quite apply = to > these, though. Functional doesn=E2=80=99t apply to Guile much better than to CPython. >> Actually I=E2=80=99d love to see Guile become better at this: to make it= easier >> to deploy an application that uses Guile in a statically compiled >> binary. >> >> Basically to generalize what LilyPond is doing. > > In what ways could it become =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D for this use case? Currently the default way to embed assumes that Guile is provided as a shared library. But that can be problematic when you want to ship a binary people can test easily. For example I=E2=80=99d like to be able to add Guile to a Godot-game and th= en simply ship it. It would also be nice to have an easy option to embed Guile in Android apps. "If you use Guile, you cannot turn your program into a mobile app" isn=E2=80=99t a strong pitch. > Personally, I encourage people to write more Scheme and less C, there > are lots of good reasons for that. As a corollary, I encourage moving > from =E2=80=9Cembedding=E2=80=9D Guile (linking your C/C++ program agains= t libguile) to > =E2=80=9Cextending=E2=80=9D Guile (having your main program written in Gu= ile Scheme and > calling out to C/C++ bits as needed). That=E2=80=99s been my position si= nce the > 2.0 days. I do the same, but I see that this is no viable way forward for existing programs. And having Guile in make has already proven useful to me. Best wishes, Arne -- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken