Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christian Brunello]

Hello everyone,

  I write because I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
package.

In the version I am preparing, the program is written in Scheme, using
Guile.  In this release there will be only the fdisk program, but in the
future I want to add more. So a more generic name would be appropriate.

I discussed this with Richard Stallman, and the volunteers on the
mentors@gnu.org list. Since the package is based on GUILE, we consider
using the name "Guile Diskutils".

We wanted to know what you think of this name.

-- 
Christian Brunello

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Eric Bavier]

On 12/09/2017 07:46 AM, Christian Brunello wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>    I write because I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
> package.
>
> In the version I am preparing, the program is written in Scheme, using
> Guile.  In this release there will be only the fdisk program, but in the
> future I want to add more. So a more generic name would be appropriate.
>
> I discussed this with Richard Stallman, and the volunteers on the
> mentors@gnu.org list. Since the package is based on GUILE, we consider
> using the name "Guile Diskutils".
>
> We wanted to know what you think of this name.

IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with is an 
implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the utility's 
name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.

-- 
`~Eric

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[David Pirotte]

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> IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with is an 
> implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the utility's 
> name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.

	"GNU Diskutils"

1+

David

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Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christian Brunello]

David Pirotte writes:

>> IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with is an 
>> implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the utility's 
>> name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.
>
> 	"GNU Diskutils"
>
> 1+
>
> David

I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
(a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
framework) and so on.

-- 
Christian Brunello

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[David Pirotte]

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Hi Christian,

> >> IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with is an 
> >> implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the utility's 
> >> name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.  

> > 	"GNU Diskutils"

> > 1+
> > David  

> I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
> this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
> (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
> framework) and so on.

It is, by definition, an implementation detail: whether your user know (or not ) in
what language the tool is implemented won't make _any_ difference on how they will
use it, neither will it change the output of their usage ...

Besides, having Guile in the name may even be a 'blocker': 'out there' most do still
fear scheme, in general, and Guile is no exception.  They will question, because of
prejudgment mostly, if it 'works well', why the hell is it not implemented in php,
python, go, java ... in a 'real language' ...

If it was a library for Guile, it would be different. As an example, I'm the author
and maintainer of GNU Foliot, not GNU Guile-Foliot, because it is an app (even
though users could extend it, but that is anther story...) ... users (most users)
are not interested to know i what language it's been written , they want to know if
is good, if it does the job, if it is well maintained ...

My 2c,
Do as you wish of course,
David

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Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[tomas]

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On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:01:41PM -0200, David Pirotte wrote:
> Hi Christian,
> 
> > >> IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with is an 
> > >> implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the utility's 
> > >> name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.  
> 
> > > 	"GNU Diskutils"
> 
> > > 1+
> > > David  
> 
> > I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
> > this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
> > (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
> > framework) and so on.
> 
> It is, by definition, an implementation detail [...]

I strongly agree. You don't call "ls" "C ls", or  "nroff" "Shell nroff",
or "automake" "Perl automake". This somewhat conveys that "if you aren't
a Pythonista (or whatever), this program is not for you".

But hey, I'm not the author :-)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Freja Nordsiek]

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I mostly agree with David Pirotte here. For a program, it is not always relevant what it is implemented in except if it is meant to go with several other programs (say it is part of a framework). Now, for an all new program, mentioning what it is implemented in in the name is a reasonable choice. Changing the name of a program to do it is a bit different circumstance.

However, there is a major catch in this situation. Christian Brunello mentioned in the first email, if I read it correctly, that there are plans and intentions to extend it beyond just fdisk. Then renaming to something like [something] diskutils makes a lot of sense. If it is just a bunch of programs we get back to the argument earlier about including guile in the name or not. However, if those plans for extension include libraries and/or packages for use by other 3rd party programs, then the implementation possibly matters a lot. If this is part of the plan, then Guile Diskutils is a fairly reasonable name in my opinion. I really hope this is in the plan, by the way. There are a lot of interesting things that could lead to.


Freja Nordsiek

On December 13, 2017 1:01:41 AM GMT+01:00, David Pirotte <david@altosw.be> wrote:
>Hi Christian,
>
>> >> IMHO the programming language/compiler a utility is written with
>is an 
>> >> implementation detail that should not manifest itself in the
>utility's 
>> >> name.  In this case, I think "GNU Distutils" would be better.  
>
>> > 	"GNU Diskutils"
>
>> > 1+
>> > David  
>
>> I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail
>in
>> this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like
>xterm
>> (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the
>GNOME
>> framework) and so on.
>
>It is, by definition, an implementation detail: whether your user know
>(or not ) in
>what language the tool is implemented won't make _any_ difference on
>how they will
>use it, neither will it change the output of their usage ...
>
>Besides, having Guile in the name may even be a 'blocker': 'out there'
>most do still
>fear scheme, in general, and Guile is no exception.  They will
>question, because of
>prejudgment mostly, if it 'works well', why the hell is it not
>implemented in php,
>python, go, java ... in a 'real language' ...
>
>If it was a library for Guile, it would be different. As an example,
>I'm the author
>and maintainer of GNU Foliot, not GNU Guile-Foliot, because it is an
>app (even
>though users could extend it, but that is anther story...) ... users
>(most users)
>are not interested to know i what language it's been written , they
>want to know if
>is good, if it does the job, if it is well maintained ...
>
>My 2c,
>Do as you wish of course,
>David

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Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christian Brunello]

Sorry for the delay.

Freja Nordsiek writes:

> I mostly agree with David Pirotte here. For a program, it is not always relevant what it is implemented in except if it is meant to go with several other programs (say it is part of a framework). Now, for an all new program, mentioning what it is implemented in in the name is a reasonable choice. Changing the name of a program to do it is a bit different circumstance.

Also I agree, I find it wrong to, for example, call a package "c-name", or "c++-name"
if it is not a library for that specific language.

> However, there is a major catch in this situation. Christian Brunello mentioned in the first email, if I read it correctly, that there are plans and intentions to extend it beyond just fdisk. Then renaming to something like [something] diskutils makes a lot of sense. If it is just a bunch of programs we get back to the argument earlier about including guile in the name or not. However, if those plans for extension include libraries and/or packages for use by other 3rd party programs, then the implementation possibly matters a lot. If this is part of the plan, then Guile Diskutils is a fairly reasonable name in my opinion. I really hope this is in the plan, by the way. There are a lot of interesting things that could lead to.

Yes, this is my idea: Create a package containing several tools for disk
administration. All tools are written in scheme and use libparted
through a guile extension (this extension is part of the
package). Installing this package will not only add programs to the
administration, but with the GUILE extension we will be able to
administer the disks directly in the scheme language (with a script or
GUILE shell).

-- 
Christian Brunello

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
> this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
> (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
> framework) and so on.

Hence many users who don't use Gnome won't use gnome-terminal.
Do you really want to use a name which will make users think
"Guile Diskutils ... nope, not for me, I don't use Guile".


        Stefan


PS: Also `xterm` indeed only works with the X Window System (contrary to
gnome-terminal which works fine in this here XFCE session).

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
  > this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
  > (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
  > framework) and so on.

The reason this is not just an implementation detail, 
according to Christian, is that the dependence on Guile affects prerequisites.
He thinks it would be inconvenient to put Guile-dependent programs
and non-Guile-dependent programs together in one package.

What do the rest of you think about this?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christopher Lemmer Webber]

Richard Stallman writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I'm sorry but I do not agree. Guile is not an implementation detail in
>   > this case. It means that the package is based on Guile. It's like xterm
>   > (a terminal for x window), gnome-terminal (a terminal based on the GNOME
>   > framework) and so on.
>
> The reason this is not just an implementation detail, 
> according to Christian, is that the dependence on Guile affects prerequisites.
> He thinks it would be inconvenient to put Guile-dependent programs
> and non-Guile-dependent programs together in one package.
>
> What do the rest of you think about this?

I think that if the package maintainer feels strongly about this, it's
reasonable to give them some leverage to rename the package.

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christian Brunello]

Christopher Lemmer Webber writes:

> I think that if the package maintainer feels strongly about this, it's
> reasonable to give them some leverage to rename the package.

Thank you.

Yes, I feel convinced of this name. It makes clear that the package
contains some programs to administer disks, and that depends on Guile.

-- 
Christian Brunello

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Dec 2017, at 14:46, Christian Brunello <mail.kristian@yahoo.it> wrote:
> 
> I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
> package. ... we consider
> using the name "Guile Diskutils".

FYI, there is a MacOS program differing only in that it is not a plural:
  diskutil — modify, verify and repair local disks

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Christian Brunello]

Hans Åberg writes:

>> On 9 Dec 2017, at 14:46, Christian Brunello <mail.kristian@yahoo.it> wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
>> package. ... we consider
>> using the name "Guile Diskutils".
>
> FYI, there is a MacOS program differing only in that it is not a plural:
>   diskutil — modify, verify and repair local disks

Thank's, I didn't know about.

-- 
Christian Brunello

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
  > > package. ... we consider
  > > using the name "Guile Diskutils".

  > FYI, there is a MacOS program differing only in that it is not a plural:
  >   diskutil — modify, verify and repair local disks

That is not a real problem.  There must have been a dozen different
programs called "diskutils" for various different systems.

I don't think there is any other "Guile Diskutils".  So there is no
reason we should not use that name.

Is there already a "Guile Diskutils"?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Jay Sulzberger]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Christian Brunello Christian Brunello
<mail.kristian@yahoo.it> wrote:

>
> Hello everyone,
>
>  I write because I would like to rename the GNU fdisk
> package.
>
> In the version I am preparing, the program is written in Scheme, using
> Guile.  In this release there will be only the fdisk program, but in the
> future I want to add more. So a more generic name would be appropriate.
>
> I discussed this with Richard Stallman, and the volunteers on the
> mentors@gnu.org list. Since the package is based on GUILE, we consider
> using the name "Guile Diskutils".
>
> We wanted to know what you think of this name.
>
> -- 
> Christian Brunello

I have forgotten when I first used the present program called
"fdisk".  I use it only on systems with the Linux kernel and all
*nix utilities being GNU utilities.  Recently I use it one day a
week on several systems, mainly to check that I know what drives
are plugged into which computers.  So I mainly do

   fdisk -l

I am for keeping the name "fdisk" for the new GUILE-LISP POWERED
HYPERDRIVE MANIPULATOR.  To me, fdisk feels like a basic standard
utility, like ed^WEmacs.  So the name should remain the same even
unto and beyond the day it works by teleporting the drive to
Frolix-8 and asking our friends there to do the work.  When fdisk
becomes a small, but always foundational!, part of the new GNU
collection of low level data mungers, its info page should have a
section presenting the Scheme theoretic techniques used to build
all the parts of the package.

oo--JS.

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The program's name is and will remain GNU fdisk.

We're talking about the name of the _package_
that will contain this program and others.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.

Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Nala Ginrut]

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Personally, I don't think adding guile prefix to a package name is the way
to advocating Guile, unless it's Guile specific program and used by Guile
only.
GNU Artanis is written in pure Guile scheme, but the name doesn't imply any
guile stuff. If people like it, then they will like the power of Guile. But
if they know little about Guile, they may afraid of using it when they see
Guile-webframework as the name.
It's not so easy to let people accept a new language. So I think it's
better to avoid such implication.


2017年12月15日 06:15，"Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>写道：

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> The program's name is and will remain GNU fdisk.
>
> We're talking about the name of the _package_
> that will contain this program and others.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
> Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.
>
>
>

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Re: Rename GNU fdisk to GUILE diskutils

[Jay Sulzberger]

On Thu, 14 Dec 2017, Richard Stallman Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> The program's name is and will remain GNU fdisk.
>
> We're talking about the name of the _package_
> that will contain this program and others.
>
> -- 
> Dr Richard Stallman

Thanks, Richard!  I was not clear on this.

oo--JS.


> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
> Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.
>
>