From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.clisp.devel,gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:23:34 +0200 Organization: Informatimago Message-ID: <87pqoqb2fd.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1302708430 18346 80.91.229.12 (13 Apr 2011 15:27:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:27:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-devel@gnu.org To: clisp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Original-X-From: clisp-devel-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net Wed Apr 13 17:27:06 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: lisp-clisp-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.sourceforge.net ([216.34.181.88]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QA1yD-0002AC-DU for lisp-clisp-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:27:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.74) (envelope-from ) id 1QA1yC-0008Pr-4Y; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:27:04 +0000 Original-Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.74) (envelope-from ) id 1QA1yA-0008Pl-DF for clisp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:27:02 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of m.gmane.org designates 80.91.229.12 as permitted sender) client-ip=80.91.229.12; envelope-from=lisp-clisp-devel@m.gmane.org; helo=lo.gmane.org; Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.74) id 1QA1y3-0002Yv-UY for clisp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:27:02 +0000 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QA1xr-00020C-T8 for clisp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:26:43 +0200 Original-Received: from 81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com ([81.202.16.46]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:26:43 +0200 Original-Received: from pjb by 81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:26:43 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 75 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAQMAAABtzGvEAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAA oElEQVR4nK3OsRHCMAwF0O8YQufUNIQRGIAja9CxSA55AxZgFO4coMgYrEDDQZWPIlNAjwq9 033pbOBPtbXuB6PKNBn5gZkhGa86Z4x2wE67O+06WxGD/HCOGR0deY3f9Ijwwt7rNGNf6Oac l/GuZTF1wFGKiYYHKSFAkjIo1b6sCYS1sVmFhhhahKQssRjRT90ITWUk6vvK3RsPGs+M1RuR mV+hO/VvFAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Accept-Language: fr, es, en User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZmI3MjcyYTYxZDNhNWVjZjk3NGZlNmQyMmJlZDJjYWViOWQ0Y2U3MQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.6 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-Headers-End: 1QA1y3-0002Yv-UY X-BeenThere: clisp-devel@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: CLISP developers List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: clisp-devel-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.clisp.devel:22430 gmane.lisp.guile.devel:12237 Archived-At: Noah Lavine writes: > Hello Guile and Clisp developers, > > I'm writing to talk about vague big-picture ideas, but please bear > with me for a minute, because I think this could be useful. > > I noticed in the recent GNU Summer of Code applications (I'm a mentor > for Guile) that CLisp wants to become embeddable, and embed into Emacs > as a first test case. That would make Clisp an embeddable Lisp > implementation with a bytecode-interpreting virtual machine, compiler, > interpreter, debugger, etc. A very cool thing. Clisp developers might > not be aware that that is exactly what GNU Guile is - a > bytecode-interpreting virtual machine with a compiler, interpreter, > debugger, and collection of useful tools. Guile is already embeddable, > because that was one of Guile's original goals, but the difference is > not so big. Guile also has a summer of code projects to embed itself > into Emacs, in fact. > > It seems to me that it is time for Guile and CLisp to consider working > together, because if we don't work together then I think we're both > going to do the same work twice, separately. > > This depends greatly on what CLisp's goals are as a project, and I do > not know those. Maybe you have very different goals than Guile, in > which case we might not gain anything by working together. But I do > have a feeling that we are both evolving towards the same place, and > if so, I think it would be nice to cooperate some along the way. I think we should first compare the virtual machines. If no obvious impossibility is observed, then perhaps modifying the compiler of clisp to generate guile VM code would be an easy path to obtain a CL implementation running on guile VM. (This would disable the interpreter in clisp, since it is implemented in C). Or, vice-versa, if the VM of clisp has advantages (but if guile has continuations, this would be lacking in the clisp VM). In general, there may be a need for a very good lisp virtual machine to run and integrate lisp code in general (CL, various schemes, and other sorts of lisp-like languages, we could include perhaps implementations of python, ruby, smalltalk, javascript, etc). From well afar, it looks like the JVM is not good enough for lisp (ABCL, Clojure, seem to have some difficulties to implement some basic lisp features on the JVM). This VGLVM would: - be embeddable in applications, - include a FFI to native code, - be more performant than the JVM, - be natively multithreaded, - have a good real-time multithreaded garbage collector, - possibly have a JIT and/or a retargetting compiler, - allow easy (FFI-less) communication between the different languages targetting it (for example, when we run pseudo, we can call CL function from scheme and scheme functions from CL).. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forrester Wave Report - Recovery time is now measured in hours and minutes not days. 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