From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alex Sassmannshausen Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: FOSDEM 2019 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 15:42:48 +0000 Message-ID: <87mun8ditj.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87o97sv51q.fsf@web.de> <87ef8mc4hu.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87o97pc9m9.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: alex.sassmannshausen@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="150024"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: mu4e 1.0; emacs 26.1 Cc: Arne Babenhauserheide , guile-devel To: Amirouche Boubekki Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 06 16:50:33 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1grPT4-000csA-1b for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:50:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53002 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1grPT3-0008Ho-2l for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 10:50:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59889) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1grPLk-0002Xy-5J for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 10:42:57 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1grPLi-0002mD-PQ for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 10:42:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::329]:40271) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1grPLh-0002kf-1Y for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 10:42:53 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id q21so3259196wmc.5 for ; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:42:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:reply-to:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wAwNOzVKC5AygIMSFZtxqs0QgNecSEYJQmFhDLzXCX4=; b=fC65oXjLXHCfKgCvhMICP0GUteahfKGfsQonQkXw1dLpKAMGdZYi2vqoTzAbeRaGOo xZDfUyZMRFHHj2L/5K3D/d+giLiebS4vAzA2K75X73vmTLYE3Z9yRJq+X9Vs6lW2QAmf +gkHaRfPBA2EOm+x1dvYoH0vQE6jjR+6Z4Zr8lcSfhjNh9hsGnNOQjheZ3Ewbg5CW1Gs k48PK/LDQbsO8WzTEEctZB6gB2hM66bl6veY19v4tt3iTiTEHLsIOYGasD+L4ZJrFQMA mr6udKPb/LeCCPbKkzkZEaobsx8DxW/RxeecVL6SOP8+RXfFbxB51uMDqsIGhN9eZnXZ v8Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :reply-to:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wAwNOzVKC5AygIMSFZtxqs0QgNecSEYJQmFhDLzXCX4=; b=RINIsbqJgFAgZ3x/66r6wI4kkHkAayaf4uKJJrdP22+JEmDGPU1MbXTtGaLmrPLbWx OPZBzIzkcWArDf0fzNHs7tM8smJV3ZtyRhrM9YxJaoxi3t4WthynQTZiwzNnLG2x+mkO zfU4O7ojUN5qe1rH0qT0LAABIbXG5oqipeuxg36v5bxODvUcK3vKpv4iVyRNJ8xKFEDW PzMBihCMvlyQiCGm9NHp1kItvchT8AwHqvgBdPhFcOzeEkdbUzYMnRBB7qZ76wCRbNb2 VtLWXQAPzlwIx+1Et4J/pIWXpMEXAJhfqM2eVesiIgVOJCy06sSjJyR/LK54cOs3/yWW SiIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZB6O6lea2aTNtDD39yEwRAJelpiEDnioLP3XgtjOpW9nNr5+Ix P6eTp9RdSrd9lH7SNBpBFIPui9LOJH4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYdgxzNiqOXxSkZzG8iK1TIDbqXMzusB451jopjvX8mH7Geq7w8Rk7hcqWFFgGbQcaiipqUZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:864f:: with SMTP id i76mr3551999wmd.83.1549467769709; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:42:49 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from watership ([87.236.135.19]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q6sm10444850wmq.4.2019.02.06.07.42.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:42:49 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::329 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:19835 Archived-At: Hi Amirouche Amirouche Boubekki writes: > Le mer. 6 f=C3=A9vr. 2019 =C3=A0 14:47, Alex Sassmannshausen a =C3=A9crit : > > > - Janneke mentioned the new guile build system in guix for simpler > > guile packages and I think that's pretty great. Likewise there was > > some mention of some sort of you-don't-have-to-use-autotools build > > system and I don't remember what it's name was. (BTW, I continue to > > believe that "Guix is and should be Guile's package mangager".) > > I was unaware that we had a guile build system in Guix. > > What is it? I may be misunderstanding =E2=80=94 so feel free to clarify! The build system in Guix would be a value that can be declared in the `build-system' field of package definitions. It's basically what tells Guix what steps need to be performed to build and install an application. Guile libraries and applications currently need to use the GNU Build System, or the trivial build system, with some additional steps that need to be added by the packager. If we had a build system, we could simply stick the `guile-build-system' value in the `build-system' field. > In the past I was the one who argued strongly for the build system and > for the no-autotools approach =E2=80=94 I believe in the context of outr= eachy. > Unfortunately I was unable to make that part a reality. > > Even so, I have been developing a solution that is part of this > discussion in the form of Guile Hall, which is a project manager for > Guile with strong integration with Guix & Autotools. > > guile hall can be found here https://gitlab.com/a-sassmannshausen/guile-h= all Thank you for adding that link. I forgot to add that! > As you can see, I have a horse in this race. I would be very interested > in collaborating with others who feel strongly about this part of the > Guile/Guix user journey =E2=80=94 either on improvements to Hall, Guix o= r on > other tooling. > > Talking about tools and build systems, what do you think of https://waf.i= o/? I have heard about it before, but to be honest I haven't engaged with it. For me, my engagement with build systems is a necessary evil. I want to do the right thing, but really I want to engage with them as little as possible. Hackers much more knowledgeable and experienced than I have persuasively argued for the benefits of the Autotools infrastructure, which also is the "blessed" GNU system. This is why I decided to have Hall build Autotools infrastructure. Sorry, this answer might not have been what you are looking for, but the truth is I don't even know enough about build systems to be able to evaluate their merits. There has been talk in the past about Autotools replacements or Guile build systems etc. but in the meantime I wanted to get something out there, in a rather unlisp-y fashion perhaps, that is worse than better (https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html). Best wishes, Alex