From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: The Guile junk drawer and a C plea Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 17:11:34 +0200 Message-ID: <87frs6wx95.fsf@web.de> References: <20240629002027.13853-1-richard@freakingpenguin.com> <87h6co21qv.fsf@laura> <87r0bsxpoe.fsf@web.de> <4d9d9c2e-0830-4267-b8e5-1a50cb815508@msavoritias.me> <0ca709eb-5d14-4ce7-a27e-3b7367bde44d@lassi.io> <877cdk10s6.fsf@laura> <87bk2vyd29.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38504"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "tomas@tuxteam.de" , Olivier Dion , Lassi Kortela , Msavoritias , "guile-devel@gnu.org" To: Attila Lendvai Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 18 17:36:58 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sUTBh-0009lT-87 for guile-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.devel:22585 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attila Lendvai writes: >> > IOW, if you don't want changes in your dependencies, then just don't = update them. >>=20=20 >> This does not work. >>=20=20 >> You often have to update dependencies for security reasons. Got a new >> gnutls or openssl or openssh with new cyphers you need to have a working >> program =E2=80=94 will Guile 3 get updated to support them or will you = be forced >> to migrate to Guile 4 to keep your tool working? > > > fork off guile 3 into a branch, and backport those precious few > security issues that you are suggesting will pop up. Add modern formats you have to interact with. Websockets. HTTP3. That=E2=80=99s why it does not work that way. What you=E2=80=99re suggestin= g is the path to automatically turn working software into legacy software by creating a constant upkeep cost to avoid becoming stale and unusable. There are sometimes actually good reasons to break backwards compatibility, but they are very, very few, and if you have an issue where = you think it is an actual reason to break backwards compatibility, it most likely is not. > it's about keeping engineering debt low, so that the invested human > effort continues to give good yields. You can take the easy route for that when creating a product people do not build upon. But Guile has the official mission to be a foundation for people to build upon: =E2=80=9EGuile is the GNU Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions, and the official extension language of the GNU project.=E2=80=9C =E2=80=94 https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ If you break backwards compatibility, you break extensions. One of the promises of Guile is: =E2=80=9CUsing any of the supported scripting languages, users can customiz= e and extend applications while they are running and see the changes take place live! Users can easily trade and share features by uploading and downloading the scripts, instead of trading complex patches and recompiling their applications.=E2=80=9D This only works if those scripts keep working. That=E2=80=99s one reason why we have to think twice how to preserve backwa= rds compatibility. You *can* usually keep engineering debt low without breaking existing tools. Shim stuff. Build compatibility layers. And the few special exceptions where that doesn=E2=80=99t work usually aren=E2=80=99t special e= nough to break compatibility. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmaZNk4QHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD63nuEADVrfuaiHId7rb2AQYnWjs3Y7w+7RCDMvzP 6LcgG6KFBXTh2U6yn7886IKdnOBcmyUJaXClCetItefzmPn7dtyeiPX4hIUr2wbj e+vVmM/EWOExCHrmzhYD8T+FDozJd5V65HvqAqp6uDWWFkWNwCdDUdYolhhOIvc3 RiybSgiSIOefZ3N5AENBTW8AGoaxsSsRO7ORYWvIXUHsyh+6M00XNC/6GbHWKxHh uTcfzmfj9gqVQy8xELaeTJC7t1ceiMtN4tgAIClnFEE0XGDZJW4xPb7e2HRrlkfM bplEb/ZGNluk+3WYHmiTuXeItF/uyjUmczKgalKFB3w1xY9bK+ofKSQEKSjLpw2K cctWR2Tq9oKRzMTxhUFJKQdOasM4nC2GfdGRIB3DtY1Piz138tmK5fMXQPF2L0lk 92B8zu3vJyPaWxlDdYUcNOXL3QMsa7O51NyWCfeNoQqaPFz/n2UPP3gIt2R8vq8y PxLHUL3DbkVxMjz+Fn6+QOBvwGlj4pW7Hu2IATmZbXZvcPQnjnYz8PC6fxxqHfl2 HJsYAYmK8jNy1H2Rf+PZyiMqgvSSmoQGVceaCyL5Aln8kwcM1H2cGG3Br56qurs7 k3uaWOc0XvSQB3IxyR1hUjCKaV3/byZiQz6ogMHf8GRWX+h11G7+rePplGNGZZBt A5OFu60uRIjEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmaZNk4QHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSKNPA/4lXuFvbI9KbH3MrIn/rLch8VtU vD8D3S3GWc4FU2x4mAlYGU2i6w4nrufRRckC0eauZS+rPpCZwpruCzelwow8mNH6 2xOkcho0IP2+MNpZJHlCiBDAhGG09f6saWk8X28sLPgUjHo42ugH/gAcRLu3k4Sb BCN/RRnBt96EV/a2Tg== =3/ck -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--