From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andy Wingo Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: Document top-level pseudo-hygiene Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:07:21 +0100 Message-ID: <87bnwuqbye.fsf@pobox.com> References: <87r47ugh9h.fsf@netris.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1395778052 15822 80.91.229.3 (25 Mar 2014 20:07:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:07:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-devel@gnu.org To: Mark H Weaver Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 25 21:07:42 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WSXdN-0000wM-V7 for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:07:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43940 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSXdN-0003YR-Em for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43963) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSXdG-0003YA-N1 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSXdB-0004tB-Nc for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:34 -0400 Original-Received: from a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com ([208.72.237.25]:59873 helo=sasl.smtp.pobox.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSXdB-0004t6-Il for guile-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:29 -0400 Original-Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D39011022; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:29 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=sasl; bh=O5u9ekw4hhFqBL+PJ6YsF68FG1Y=; b=eYyHRw 6OhnFT3uq2pjtDjnDIkkoTJnifLlTF0krfNyXzeWEpnPJWVRi2MuyRSAPnjlt2Vb yHg6bcY8e4xbhECq8zb/xZxteIOdFdYyeisRLjVn5g3B1oj5IRUd19CyOcvmeoiK Ui9wMcA7mQYA1udaZ1vMqe6pQdeDyQmV884s0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b=r/z6NhoyWUdC8F+ygYPSWR/N2/Ar3NtR xg/tuvo8P2EwrmiGowECSn0VfC0FhiJ32+d1cblYF/S0+NhYk5QTj9HDkwDn5Ymi /9BF6TkFy3UJI4rjx+48OtBcF9uajcUCN6VZ67/idSBJ7DzLzv3SKcjpqILbLktP 8lUqERRZvzc= Original-Received: from a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365AB11021; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from badger (unknown [88.160.190.192]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CEFD11015; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:07:26 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87r47ugh9h.fsf@netris.org> (Mark H. Weaver's message of "Sun, 26 Jan 2014 23:50:34 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 160E6902-B459-11E3-8374-873F0E5B5709-02397024!a-pb-sasl-quonix.pobox.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 208.72.237.25 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17012 Archived-At: Hi :) On Mon 27 Jan 2014 05:50, Mark H Weaver writes: > "Andy Wingo" writes: >> commit 03dfed840b377a72191b6f125c106fdfd9e90a21 >> Author: Andy Wingo >> Date: Fri Jan 24 12:34:26 2014 +0100 >> >> Document top-level pseudo-hygiene >> >> * doc/ref/api-macros.texi (Hygiene and the Top-Level): Add a section >> documenting our pseudo-hygienic top-level names. > > As I've said before, I strenuously object to these novel semantics that > you've invented. I believe this would be an ugly wart on Guile that we > would have to support indefinitely, in violation of the standards, > because its existence would encourage people to write code that depends > upon it. I think the hyperbole is a bit out of place. All semantics are invented and novel at some point; that is not an argument against a thing. But you object; OK. > Now, to reduce the danger that a library author might unwittingly make > the mistake you're (rightly) worried about, I suggest that we rig the > compiler to issue a warning whenever an introduced toplevel identifier > crosses a module boundary. I don't think we know this information. WDYT about warning when residualizing a fresh toplevel? Or even raising an error? Perhaps one could configure this somehow. I certainly do not want any fresh toplevels to be residualized within Guile proper, and I expect the same goes for other projects as well. Fresh toplevels are just a novel semantic some people invented that I strenuously object to ;-) Andy -- http://wingolog.org/