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* Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches)
@ 2021-12-13 22:18 Jean Abou Samra
  2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Jean Abou Samra @ 2021-12-13 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-devel, maximedevos, arne_bab; +Cc: wingo, ludo, Jonas Hahnfeld

> Hi,
>
> Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide schreef op za 11-12-2021 om 16:12 [+0100]:
> >/+ (p "To contribute small improvements, please send patches to/
> >/"/
> >/+    (a (@ (href "mailto:guile-devel@gnu.org" 
> <mailto:guile-devel@gnu.org">;))/
> >/"guile-devel@gnu.org")/
> >/+       ".")/
>
> What about contributing _large_ improvements?
> Where should patches for large improvements go?
>
> >/+ (p "For larger changes, please discuss them first in the "/
> >/+ (a (@ (href "https://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile->/
> devel/")) "development mailing list")
>
> What if I tried to discuss them, but nobody answered?
> (https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=46258)
> (Not 100% accurate though, because I discussed the interface on IRC a
> bit IIRC? I can't find it in the logs anymore though.)
>
> What if, I then proceed with writing the patches, and nobody responds
> with some points to work on or applies it?
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-03/msg00026.html)
> (The only response is a +1-style response.)
>
> What if, eight months later, I send a simplified patch series, with
> things made more consistent, and with much more tests, and this time,
> there is exactly one response, with a minor point that is quickly
> addressed
> (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-11/msg00019.html),
> but the patches aren't applied?
>
> There have been many commits and two releases since the first patch
> series
> (https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/log/?id=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430&qt=range&q=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430..HEAD&ofs=100  <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/log/?id=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430&qt=range&q=653cc0bf953a11432f77ade9c007848e947cc430..HEAD&ofs=100>)
> , without any signs that it will actually ever be applied.
>
> So I guess what I'm trying to say, is that while your patch documenting
> how to contribute seems reasonable to me, it has been very inaccurate
> for me in practice (not your fault!).
>
> Greetings,
> Maxime


I concur with this concern. The patch
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2021-07/msg00000.html
has been proposed five months ago and after
several pings still only saw responses from Maxime.
It comes from a LilyPond developer trying to fix
issues relevant for LilyPond.

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=16364#19
is a patch allowing to silence the auto-compilation
logging, which is also somewhat relevant to our use
case. It has not seen any reaction.

I see a number of similar cases on the mailing list.

I understand the cost of reviewing and I know that
nobody is entitled to anything in the free software
world. However, I would like to voice the concern that
Guile's maintenance is not scaling, and the project
cannot attract new contributors if patches do not
make it to the main branch. If the current maintainers
need to drop their activity, it would be nice if
they could share maintainership so that at least
bug fixes can be applied.

(NB: Sending this as myself, _not_ after any sort
of discussion at LilyPond.)

Thank you for your consideration,
Jean Abou Samra




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
@ 2021-12-15 13:35 Blake Shaw
  2021-12-15 14:07 ` Ludovic Courtès
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Blake Shaw @ 2021-12-15 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ludovic Courtès
  Cc: Jean Abou Samra, wingo, arne_bab, Jonas Hahnfeld, maximedevos,
	guile-devel

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> If someone is interested, please get in touch with us!
>
> While Andy focuses on major improvements to the compiler and VM with a
> long-term vision, I think it would be great to also have people on the
> maintainer team focusing on more day-to-day operations: incremental
> improvements, bug fixes, etc.  I think we’re lucky that there’ve been a
> number of talented contributors chiming in over the last couple of
> years; let’s take advantage of this, at last!
>

Just want to chime in as a new Guile to say that while I'm still
learning, I'm happy to work on any "chores" if there is guidance on how
to do so. exploring guile has been half the fun so far.

I know CHICKEN has a team of "janitors"; perhaps Guile could benefit
from adopting a similar approach? 

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
@ 2021-12-19 20:05 Blake Shaw
  2021-12-19 20:41 ` Maxime Devos
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Blake Shaw @ 2021-12-19 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Taylan Kammer
  Cc: Olivier Dion, Ludovic Courtès, Jean Abou Samra, guile-devel

Taylan Kammer <taylan.kammer@gmail.com> writes:

> On 17.12.2021 16:48, Olivier Dion wrote:
>>> Olivier Dion <olivier.dion@polymtl.ca> skribis:
>>>
>>>> I would also like to contribute in some meaningful way.  In what way
>>>> someone with none wizard knowledge of Scheme can contribute the most to the
>>>> project?
>>>
>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
>>> Triage of bugs and patches is always welcome I guess, and communicating
>>> what needs to be applied/addressed first to whoever can actually commit
>>> it.  That’s one possible way to help.
>> 
>> Where can this be done?  I know that Guix is using debbugs, but do Guile
>> does the same or is it all tracked on Savannah?
>> 
>> Also, any way to help on the C side?
>> 
>
> Guile also uses Debbugs:
>
> https://bugs.gnu.org/guile

hi folks, from what I'm seeing here it seems like there are quite a few
of us who are interested in engaging in steady, organized participation
in Guile's upkeep, but we're unsure whether we're qualified. At the same
time Ludo needs to find a replacement and Andy is apparently quite busy,
and some issues in the ecosystem are apparently starting to show their teeth.

personally I've been programming for about 15 years now but my career
has been entirely in new media (video, graphics, audio), so while I've
worked with plenty of lower-level libraries over the years, I didn't
start to get an itch for compilers until covid happened. I was also
doing a PhD in philosophy of mathematics at the time (which I've
postponed indefinitely to prevent being separated from my partner during 
covid travel craziness) so I definitely think I have the *potential* to
contribute to a project like Guile, its just a matter of finding the
time to read some compiler books (which usually are neither short nor easy!).

It sounds like others are coming from similar-ish places: you feel
confident in your abilities to accede to the challenges, but lack the
background that would enable you to take the initiative. So what are we
TODO?

In a situation like this, I would recommend that we form a little
working group to collectively study the implementation of Guile, and
with Ludo's suggestions come up with a roadmap for tackling various areas
of the repo/compiler/infrastructure that need work, which we could then
divide up among ourselves with each of us creating a presentation on our
assigned areas, with group hack sessions following each bi-weekly (or
whatever) presentation. This way we could distribute the knowledge
aquisicition work in a structured fashion while forming a support group for
developing a collective understanding of the codebase, as a cohort of
sorts.  
 
wdyt?

ez,
blake 

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
@ 2021-12-20 18:53 Blake Shaw
  2021-12-29 16:23 ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Blake Shaw @ 2021-12-20 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Van den Langenbergh; +Cc: guile-devel

Tim Van den Langenbergh <tmt_vdl@gmx.com> writes:
> That sounds like a good idea, though I wonder what the best way to organise it would be.
>
> IRC, Mattermost, and Rocket Chat seem like the most obvious options
> for chat. I don't know what would be best for task management, maybe
> some out-of-the-box kanban?
>
> Ideas, anyone?
>
> Vale,
>
> -Tim.
>

irc is good for me, and of course e-mail :)

but for out-of-the-box task management tools, are we all emacs and/or org-mode users
here? we could agree on a set of features for an org document that ensures
we all sync consistentally across configurations, and then manage everything on a
branch of the guile repo. this way as we're researching the codebase, we
can post links directly to file line numbers, allowing easy navigation.

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread
* Re: Maintenance and future of Guile
@ 2021-12-29 21:05 Blake Shaw
  2021-12-29 21:57 ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Blake Shaw @ 2021-12-29 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  Cc: Olivier Dion, Tim Van den Langenbergh, guile-devel

"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> writes:

> Olivier Dion via "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility
> library" <guile-devel@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> irc is good for me, and of course e-mail :)
>>>
>>> but for out-of-the-box task management tools, are we all emacs
>>> and/or org-mode users
>>> here? we could agree on a set of features for an org document that
>>> ensures
>>> we all sync consistentally across configurations, and then manage
>>> everything on a
>>> branch of the guile repo. this way as we're researching the codebase, we
>>> can post links directly to file line numbers, allowing easy
>>> navigation.
>>
>> I'm fullstack emacs, but I'm not sure if org-mode would be the best
>> management tool.  I'm using it for my personnal task, but I don't know
>> if it applies well to a team.
>
I get what you're saying, but considering we are an informal team of
emacs users, I think it could make sense. Otherwise we'll either all
need to get in the habit of using some new task-management platform
(easier said than done), or someone will need someone to step-up as an
"Agile Coach" or whatever to make sure we all gently settle into it. 

If we're all dedicated emacsians, it could be as simple as setting up
cron jobs to pull at regular intervals, and could shed some insight onto
"guix native" development and its challenges. 
> I’m using it for my personal tasks, too, but I think when syncing the
> file across people and including it in the agenda, that gives a pretty
> good team management.
>
> I got reports of people using my kanban.el for team management.

Nice you made that! All the more reason for use to give it a shot I
think. This could give you some nice insight into where it succeeds and
fails, as well.
> I’m not sure whether full org-mode is the best for Guile development,
> but it does work pretty well, and I think it would be worth a try.
>
> We can ket all kinds of useful public statistics by publishing a static
> site from the org documents.
Very true. I don't know any other tool that makes all of this easy.
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne

-- 
“In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-08-19 19:06 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 27+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-12-13 22:18 Maintenance and future of Guile (was: [patch] Add instructions for sending patches) Jean Abou Samra
2021-12-13 22:21 ` Jean Abou Samra
2021-12-14  3:45 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2022-02-11  7:33   ` Catonano
2021-12-15 10:20 ` Maintenance and future of Guile Ludovic Courtès
2021-12-16 21:15   ` Taylan Kammer
2021-12-17 14:51     ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-17 15:33       ` Artem Chernyak
2021-12-17 15:37       ` Ludovic Courtès
2021-12-17 15:48         ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-18 16:35           ` Taylan Kammer
2021-12-21 14:27           ` Ludovic Courtès
2022-08-19 16:49             ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
2022-08-19 18:46           ` zimoun
2022-08-19 19:06             ` Blake Shaw
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-12-15 13:35 Blake Shaw
2021-12-15 14:07 ` Ludovic Courtès
2021-12-19 20:05 Blake Shaw
2021-12-19 20:41 ` Maxime Devos
2021-12-19 21:11 ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-19 21:50   ` Mike Gran
2021-12-20 14:57 ` Tim Van den Langenbergh
2021-12-20 18:53 Blake Shaw
2021-12-29 16:23 ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library
2021-12-29 19:57   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-29 21:05 Blake Shaw
2021-12-29 21:57 ` Olivier Dion via Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library

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