From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 23:57:08 +0530 Message-ID: <20191016182708.GL23478@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <87blugg7dt.fsf@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="100911"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Cc: Andy Wingo , guile-devel To: "Thompson, David" Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 16 20:27:33 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iKo1D-000Q53-Bt for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 20:27:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46876 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKo1C-0001HD-7H for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:27:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53037) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKo0v-0001GB-A9 for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:27:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKo0t-0003kH-Pa for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:27:13 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:41841) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKo0t-0003iU-If for guile-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:27:11 -0400 Original-Received: from protected.rcdrun.com ([::ffff:31.223.149.60]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1) by stw1.rcdrun.com with UTF8ESMTPSA id 0000000000077C68.000000005DA760FD.00003243; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 11:27:09 -0700 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1001) by protected.rcdrun.com with local id 00000000000CC57D.000000005DA760FC.00006BB1; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 20:27:08 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by courier 1.0.6 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.170.207.13 X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:20076 Archived-At: * Thompson, David [2019-10-16 10:12]: > Now, onto the present. Seeing Mark step down from as a Guile > co-maintainer was an indicator that something was amiss internally > with Guile. I have a great respect for Mark, but I must admit that > I've been extremely disappointed to see him, on internal GNU lists, > steadfastly defending what I consider indefensible behavior by RMS. What you need to understand is to keep GNU project apolitical, where only politics is free software philosophy. That is how "community" is created, on sharing what is common to community. We are all different people. We have all our different political notes. RMS has affinity to Science Fiction. Somebody does not have affinity on Science Fiction and cannot think of it. Would then Science Fiction as subject beyond free software shall be focused on to divide the community of free software depending on what they think of science fiction? Please understand the analogy. GNU community is friendly to each other and welcoming everybody regardless of their outside political viewpoints. Keep GNU community politics-free and it will keep growing and remaining friendly. If somebody is defending RMS or attacking RMS -- why not keep that in your personal conversation to RMS, or keep it on your own blogs. But keep it OUTSIDE OF GNU website. > Upon seeing the mail to this list that Mark was stepping back into his > co-maintainer role, I had assumed that Andy and Mark had worked > through their differences and disagreements and was glad. But now > that I know that the truth is that RMS, as chief nuisance, put Mark > back into this role without the consent of either active Guile > co-maintainer, and without even telling them, I am extremely > disappointed and I do not approve. Could you deflate accusations please? > RMS, once again, has abused his leadership role to make unilateral > decisions to the detriment of a GNU project. He has acted, he has not "abused". If anybody shall be leader and contributor in GNU project those should be people loyal to free software philosophy and loyal to GNU kind communication guidelines, people who understand that GNU project is about free software operating system and users' rights. People who think that GNU project itself shall favor one or the other political views are in the wrong place. Please find appropriate place for your ranting, be it on RMS, myself, or anybody else. Not in GNU. GNU is welcoming community to everybody. It is apolitical. It is non-partisan community. Could you try understanding? It is not a democracy and it never was. Free software philosophy was not invented by democratic process. > Yet another data point that reinforces my belief that when RMS > "leads" the results are negative. That is inflation of rumors without facts. What can be wrong that one developer was welcomed back? Nothing. What can be wrong with people like Ludovic Court=C3=A8s and Andy Wingo an= d other members of the Thoughtpolice Squad? Everyting. They are dividing community, they do not belong in kind community. I let them be. But I propose that they take their disgraceful behaviour outside of GNU. > This is not the behavior of ap leader that I support, and I > certainly don't personally recognize him as the leader of GNU. So what? > He truly is a broken stair, a stick in the mud, a roadblock. He is the roadblock for people like you who never hold free software speeches and who value rumor mongering and false journalism more than his works to promote free software philosophy. Otherwise, he is the driving force and with all his connections, and influence that RMS has, he can fart and cause more good in society then you can with your biased fact-less statements. > What happens if we pay no mind to him? Does the GNU brand mean > anything at this point? If anything, it's probably negative. Blah blah blah, impossible, you have no idea what you are speaking about. Numerous free software organizations exists in his world, all over the planet, they do not share your thoughts, and your opinions simply do not matter. You cannot change the "GNU brand". It is project to build operating system and project is successful and accomplished, and there are many free software distributions, and free software philosophy is influencing the world and politics of many countries. Users are gaining their rights back. And there is much more to fight for. You cannot do nothing about it. You can hate RMS as much as you want, but you cannot do nothing about it. Finally there are people who love RMS for his way of living, for his way of pushing ideology forward, you cannot do nothing about that. > As for the future, I would like to see Guile continue to be the > welcoming, inclusive, productive place it has been since I've known > it, even though it may require some socially difficult decisions. > Andy and Ludovic, you have my support. You've responded to recent > events admirably even though it meant being personally attacked by > others within GNU and outside. Mark, I urge you to reconsider where > you stand with RMS. I know that you have a lot of history, but times > have changed. I see no reason why Guile could not be welcoming. It is now welcoming. What is wrong is mixing other viewpoints that do not belong to Guile, into the programming language. Jean Louis