German translation of R5RS

German translation of R5RS

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

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Hello Guilers,

I made a translation of R5RS to German and hope that you can accept it
into Guile proper.

You can view the PDF at

https://pelzflorian.de/files/r5rs.de.pdf

You can download the patches (for “git am 0001-…”) at

https://pelzflorian.de/files/wip-r5rsde-patches.tar.gz

or view the changes at

https://pelzflorian.de/git/guile-wip-pf/

I can e-mail the patches, but maybe 0.3MB is too big for the mailing
list.


I have some questions though:

What should I use as the translated Texinfo file’s dircategory and
direntry?  Currently it is

@dircategory Die Algorithmische Sprache Scheme
@direntry
* R5RS-de: (r5rs.de).                 Der Revised(5) Report on Scheme (deutsch).

so M-x info shows the German R5RS in its own category:

Die Algorithmische Sprache Scheme
* R5RS-de: (r5rs.de).           Der Revised(5) Report on Scheme (deutsch).


but maybe it should be organized differently.  I suppose translated
info manuals would be installed for everyone regardless of their
locale preferences?


What do you think about the rationale guiding the translation:

https://pelzflorian.de/git/guile-wip-pf/tree/doc/translation-rationale-de?h=wip-r5rsde&id=08bd475064c7b4874489455693775ba041d01290

My use of the traditional generic “masculine” form for plural
(“researchers → Forscher” instead of the more cumbersome “Forscher und
Forscherinnen” or “ForscherInnen” or “Forschende”) is controversial
and so are the alternatives.  Forschende would work but sounds more
artificial.  Is there some GNU standard?  For singular forms (“user”)
I used the female translation (“Nutzerin”) instead of grammatically
male “Nutzer”.


In the future I want to help translate the rest of the Guile manual
for which I will take another look at Julien Lepiller’s work on Guix’
po4a integration (but first I will look at my Haunt patches again).  I
will not look at Meson support for Guile until I know more about
Guile.

By the way, finding out how to compile guile from my git repository
took long on GuixSD until I found guile-for-guile-emacs.  I am really
looking forward to some kind of channel support with separate *-git
packages like on Arch’s user repository (without substitutes).

Regards,
Florian

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Re: German translation of R5RS

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

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Hello,

I’ve found answers to most of my own questions and will resend r5rs.de
this week with corrections.

On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 08:48:19PM +0200, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:
> What should I use as the translated Texinfo file’s dircategory and
> direntry?  Currently it is
> 
> @dircategory Die Algorithmische Sprache Scheme
> @direntry
> * R5RS-de: (r5rs.de).                 Der Revised(5) Report on Scheme (deutsch).
> 
> so M-x info shows the German R5RS in its own category:
> 
> Die Algorithmische Sprache Scheme
> * R5RS-de: (r5rs.de).           Der Revised(5) Report on Scheme (deutsch).
> 
> 
> but maybe it should be organized differently.  I suppose translated
> info manuals would be installed for everyone regardless of their
> locale preferences?
> 

Only this question remains.

> 
> What do you think about the rationale guiding the translation:
> 
> https://pelzflorian.de/git/guile-wip-pf/tree/doc/translation-rationale-de?h=wip-r5rsde&id=08bd475064c7b4874489455693775ba041d01290
>

A friend brought me a library’s copy of Susanne Daniels-Herold’s
German translation of Structure and Interpretation of Computer
Programs.  I will compare the terms it uses to my translation.
(I wonder if the German SICP is available freely licensed and online
like the English edition, but apparently not.)

> My use of the traditional generic “masculine” form for plural
> (“researchers → Forscher” instead of the more cumbersome “Forscher und
> Forscherinnen” or “ForscherInnen” or “Forschende”) is controversial
> and so are the alternatives.  Forschende would work but sounds more
> artificial.  Is there some GNU standard?

I did a survey with twenty-two people sitting in front of my
university’s cafeteria.  I knew none of them.  The majority (68%, 10
men and 5 women) prefers “Forschende” over “Forscher” (which is
preferred by 22%, 2 men and 3 women, additionally 2 men were
undecided) so I’ll change it to “Forschende”.  (I got similar results
from my own personal umfeld, i.e. friends, acquaintances, family.)

Regards,
Florian

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Re: German translation of R5RS

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

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Hello,

Please accept my patches adding a German language info file for R5RS
and fixing some small errors in English R5RS.  I believe the patches
to be reasonably correct.

I’m Cc’ing guile-user because they may have feedback.  I have adapted
the patches to the terminology of SICP’s German translation and
have proofread more thoroughly.


The changes are these:


Silence R5RS build warnings by Makeinfo.

* doc/r5rs/r5rs.texi: Fix code with warnings.

Fix R5RS formatting of space character syntax.

* doc/r5rs/r5rs.texi: Remove space at bad position.

Fix overlong line in the TeX output of R5RS title page.

* doc/r5rs/r5rs.texi: Split line listing R5RS editors in TeX output.

Add German translation of R5RS.

* doc/r5rs/r5rs.de.texi: Translation of r5rs.texi.
* doc/r5rs/Makefile.am: Build and install it.
* doc/translation-rationale-de: Rationale for translation choices.


Find the patches here (and not on the sources mailing list because of
their size, or should I send them there?):

https://pelzflorian.de/files/wip-r5rsde-patches-try-2.tar.gz

See R5RS.de as a PDF:

https://pelzflorian.de/files/r5rs.de.try2.pdf

Download from my Git:

https://pelzflorian.de/git/guile-wip-pf/log/?h=wip-r5rsde

Build and install with „guix package -f guile-r5rs-de-wip-pf.scm“
(takes some time):

https://pelzflorian.de/files/guile-r5rs-de-wip-pf.scm


I am not using gettext po files for R5RS because R5RS is static and
will never change.

It now uses the same dircategory as R5RS, so it shows up as

The Algorithmic Language Scheme
* Guile Reader: (guile-reader). A Reader Framework for Guile.
* Guile Reference: (guile).     The Guile reference manual.
* R5RS: (r5rs).                 The Revised(5) Report on Scheme.
* R5RS-de: (r5rs.de).           Der Revised(5) Report on Scheme (deutsch).
* SICP: (sicp).                 Structure and Interpretation of Computer
                                  Programs
* Guile-SSH: (guile-ssh).       Guile bindings to libssh.


I hope this is OK.  Please respond if not.

Note that this arrangement is currently affected by a mostly harmless
Texinfo bug; after selecting the translated r5rs.de.info the user may
have to relaunch the info program before she can visit the English
r5rs.info in some circumstances; see

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-texinfo/2018-05/msg00000.html



Regards,
Florian

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Re: German translation of R5RS

[Mark H Weaver]

Hi Florian,

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:
> Please accept my patches adding a German language info file for R5RS
> and fixing some small errors in English R5RS.  I believe the patches
> to be reasonably correct.

I very much appreciate this enormous amount of work that you've done!

My primary concern is that I lack the ability to review this, because I
have not (yet?) learned to read German.

A large technical specification like this is quite hard to produce
without introducing many mistakes.  Even when everyone in a standards
committee is focused on the same draft document, errors are frequently
introduced.

Errors in technical specifications can have quite bad consequences over
long time frames, because they lead to misunderstandings in the minds of
developers, and thus bugs in code, which may persist for a long time.

At present, most users who wish to read the R5RS have no choice but to
read the original document written in English.  On the one hand, this is
obviously a barrier and hardship for people who do not know English
well, but on the other hand, at least they can be assured that the
document they are reading has been widely reviewed by a large number of
people over several decades.

If we now invite them to read a German translation which has not been
reviewed at all (except for the translator), I fear the resulting
misunderstandings and buggy code that this might entail.

So, I would feel much more comfortable if someone else with good
knowledge of Scheme would step forward to carefully review this
translation.  It need not be someone from the Guile community, which
brings me to the next issue:

Although we distribute a copy of R5RS with Guile, we do not maintain
R5RS, and it is not specific to us.  To me, this situation seems
somewhat analogous to submitting a large contribution for the Sqlite3
library to the Firefox developers.  Firefox distributes a bundled copy
of Sqlite3, but they do not maintain that library.

However, I admit that this case is far more muddled, because R5RS is an
historical document, and there's no longer any group that maintains it
as far as I know.

Are there any German speakers here with good knowledge of Scheme who
would be willing to make a careful review this translation?

       Mark

Re: German translation of R5RS

[Freja Nordsiek]

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Mark does bring up an interesting point. Very good chances to find someone if one reached out to the communities of other implementations like Racket, Chicken, etc. And it would stand to benefit those communities in addition to Guile. If I remember correctly (very good chance I do not), I think the main developer of Chicken is a native German speaker, for example.


Freja Nordsiek

On May 29, 2018 4:08:19 PM UTC, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>Hi Florian,
>
>"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:
>> Please accept my patches adding a German language info file for R5RS
>> and fixing some small errors in English R5RS.  I believe the patches
>> to be reasonably correct.
>
>I very much appreciate this enormous amount of work that you've done!
>
>My primary concern is that I lack the ability to review this, because I
>have not (yet?) learned to read German.
>
>A large technical specification like this is quite hard to produce
>without introducing many mistakes.  Even when everyone in a standards
>committee is focused on the same draft document, errors are frequently
>introduced.
>
>Errors in technical specifications can have quite bad consequences over
>long time frames, because they lead to misunderstandings in the minds
>of
>developers, and thus bugs in code, which may persist for a long time.
>
>At present, most users who wish to read the R5RS have no choice but to
>read the original document written in English.  On the one hand, this
>is
>obviously a barrier and hardship for people who do not know English
>well, but on the other hand, at least they can be assured that the
>document they are reading has been widely reviewed by a large number of
>people over several decades.
>
>If we now invite them to read a German translation which has not been
>reviewed at all (except for the translator), I fear the resulting
>misunderstandings and buggy code that this might entail.
>
>So, I would feel much more comfortable if someone else with good
>knowledge of Scheme would step forward to carefully review this
>translation.  It need not be someone from the Guile community, which
>brings me to the next issue:
>
>Although we distribute a copy of R5RS with Guile, we do not maintain
>R5RS, and it is not specific to us.  To me, this situation seems
>somewhat analogous to submitting a large contribution for the Sqlite3
>library to the Firefox developers.  Firefox distributes a bundled copy
>of Sqlite3, but they do not maintain that library.
>
>However, I admit that this case is far more muddled, because R5RS is an
>historical document, and there's no longer any group that maintains it
>as far as I know.
>
>Are there any German speakers here with good knowledge of Scheme who
>would be willing to make a careful review this translation?
>
>       Mark

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Re: German translation of R5RS

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

Hello Mark,

Thank you for your reply.  Yes, there may not be enough qualified
reviewers here who know German and have time to spare.  Is there
someplace I could go look for reviewers?

I would like a German Guile manual to exist and started translating
R5RS.  Many non-experts in programming are put off by having to read
English and rather cargo cult copy from tutorials than read the
English manual.  It would be better if they could use sth like
e.g. the German Mozilla Developer Network or the PHP.net manual.  R5RS
seems helpful as a stepping stone to the rest of Guile despite
potential mistranslations.  German SICP is great btw, sadly it is not
more commonly taught.

Then again, maybe a German manual should live in a separate repository
so as not to add po4a or similar dependencies.  Should I put it in
some git repo somewhere stand alone?  It would be less official
although I would still be glad to get reviews.  If dependencies etc
are not a concern though and someone qualified can review it, then
please add translated manuals.

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 12:08:19PM -0400, Mark H Weaver wrote:
> A large technical specification like this is quite hard to produce
> without introducing many mistakes.  Even when everyone in a standards
> committee is focused on the same draft document, errors are frequently
> introduced.
> 

English R5RS has two errors that I know of.  Eq? is claimed to return
“true or false”, but the examples make clear it is #t or #f.  In the
specification of with-output-to-file a THUNK argument is referred to
as PROC.  Should such (minor) errors be fixed?  One of my patches also
fixes a misplaced space character in the Texinfo.

Regards,
Florian

Re: German translation of R5RS

[John Cowan]

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On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:03 PM, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <
pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:


> English R5RS has two errors that I know of.  Eq? is claimed to return
> “true or false”, but the examples make clear it is #t or #f.  In the
> specification of with-output-to-file a THUNK argument is referred to
> as PROC.  Should such (minor) errors be fixed?  One of my patches also
> fixes a misplaced space character in the Texinfo.
>

http://mumble.net/~kelsey/r5rs-errata.html are the semi-official errata.
IMO you should incorporate them.

-- 
John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
The Penguin shall hunt and devour all that is crufty, gnarly and
bogacious; all code which wriggles like spaghetti, or is infested with
blighting creatures, or is bound by grave and perilous Licences shall it
capture.  And in capturing shall it replicate, and in replicating shall
it document, and in documentation shall it bring freedom, serenity and
most cool froodiness to the earth and all who code therein.  --Gospel of Tux

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Re: German translation of R5RS

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

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On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 06:58:35PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:03 PM, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <
> pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:
> 
> 
> > English R5RS has two errors that I know of.  Eq? is claimed to return
> > “true or false”, but the examples make clear it is #t or #f.  In the
> > specification of with-output-to-file a THUNK argument is referred to
> > as PROC.  Should such (minor) errors be fixed?  One of my patches also
> > fixes a misplaced space character in the Texinfo.
> >
> 
> http://mumble.net/~kelsey/r5rs-errata.html are the semi-official errata.
> IMO you should incorporate them.
> 

That is good to know.  I did a quick search for errata but did not
find any.

call-with-current-continuation is hard to fix.  Redefinition of
keywords is not really an error.  It is not clear to me if port?
should be part of R5RS or not.

In the German version I have changed begin to be syntax instead of
library syntax now.  I also fixed list-ref.

https://pelzflorian.de/files/wip-r5rsde-patches-try-3.tar.gz

Regards,
Florian

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