From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arne Babenhauserheide Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user,gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: Request for feedback on SRFI-126 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 01:44:22 +0200 Message-ID: <2004212.koJWAIKy7V@fluss> References: <87zj08t5w1.fsf@T420.taylan> <1555352.V50ucWGNsT@fluss> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart4515965.HDTh06HHjH"; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1443648765 29199 80.91.229.3 (30 Sep 2015 21:32:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:32:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "guile-user@gnu.org" , guile-devel To: Panicz Maciej Godek Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 30 23:32:36 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhOzL-0001JH-H7 for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:32:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33607 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhOzK-0001e6-JX for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:32:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49942) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh4ZQ-0004uT-UP for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:44:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh4ZN-000738-ND for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:44:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:55010) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh4ZN-00072k-Ek; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:44:25 -0400 Original-Received: from fluss.localnet ([85.212.116.191]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MHGaV-1ZtQdv1KrL-00E3CE; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 01:44:24 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/4.14.8 (Linux/3.14.14-gentoo; KDE/4.14.8; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ETvuKj6cL3ZgyOzC58PJdpuObTM6M/3JbnBLocGEQPCLqYWTinQ 7XJZRONHeC2ATbfRB/XGYB2eQYWxGHGCliqSMhU4gtrhWOOSEK8ikwinFtIkSU9wrcJf+FK bB7hr+sxUQZmYXxAuOFuM304hMKITMf+lX8Qw85h5NCSYRNshmUbUwGER1y6ksqBcIbxnwq w3CW94sF6tYzDdpQihYjg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:f7nqD+Sg5NU=:HHDO63qUdvb3xtKAQ64F0W AgKpoO4HzXnLIjL2wwTuWlZUnJWmhdIBJz7aj98dEFcagg41Fko4ZmlE5gr9eRBQV7sJZFtWc OnRy6tSIjIUmwDMysOXIKdUaf0Q6AQ3t1NwKGXS3y864LZcrOed2pnJ9hzBUgquqLWoRNiGeo oM/1fE8+k/nup1SxhpK1rFb/sA9xz/7bNYWlOHrH9hCEyyzei7aA1kQHl2lL2h+eHKy0uqFUp dtDxF5pzRUikHkSuwZPp2tSp8smqxyvofzcldDAWT6LOaFpbpU6oFKnAJpmiKMB4ALgwdo0tE Q4AudUhL1DtjlzgazbJWzHdmNHDrOeAkDwdfCs6nxj5HmkKuubTq8+8YaXm824UZ9ZAjOftTA iLxOv4EqoukHVFL/OT8mmiC/V8d7r1LhbmCeP8ver7gWkWHcq8A+KJB9VpkcvLatWl0juuMVp 8cdC0PaoYOrXmVRPfCuK1qfB0mlwTsvET1hIYqQKhAH+ASsdD0fLzdqc5e3obC58xGM3MExUV OvJ403+mXjtZj3AklwQEijYiqTgkNbDzo2HrkElwO2glRgJ0D2Kg6G47B+3tXRcCFcqBAFZ2G IuxHXySsf6FU2bi+rNQ/sKCTriSxjX6KYzRp0ad5wgq2akRl7H+haO5WwdEh0TLvFFT7ZJSYB B+o6fJYxt67BK4yoqyqV2MZ9wsqya13Xl2sSYb0UOPETtGmXCT96o3dN12Bj0Pgtfd3+vkvmt 2tqOSNkIfRNDDq9ng9Rj2DZC0kPZtCUWnwLJyoeQpToE4UHYhLvmEBld4Ho= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.11 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:12058 gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17876 Archived-At: --nextPart4515965.HDTh06HHjH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Am Mittwoch, 30. September 2015, 01:02:50 schrieb Panicz Maciej Godek: > 2015-09-29 22:05 GMT+02:00 Arne Babenhauserheide : > > I wrote SRFI-119, not because I want Scheme to become more like > > Python, but because I want it to *look* more like Python while > > retaining its strengths. > If you asked me, I'd say that if people started using that SRFI (or t= he two > others), then it would be most harmful to the Scheme community, becau= se > that would increase code enthropy and force programmer to make an > irrelevant choice. It=E2=80=99s no more irrelevant than the choice between Guile and Racke= t. And different from that choice, it=E2=80=99s trivial to change: for i in *.w; do guile wisp.scm $i > $(basename $i .w).scm; done > It also sacrifices some of the strengths of Scheme, actually, because= it > makes the code structure obscure. I disagree on that. The structure is still just as easy to recognize as with parens: Even with parens the strongest indicator of the structure is the indentation. It keeps the effects of inline-colons limited to one line to avoid the need to do any complex mental parsing: If there=E2=80=99s a colon in a line, the paren it opens gets = closed at the end of the line. > The same goal could better be achieved (non-intrusively) by making an= easy > to use editor that would allow to display your Scheme code in the way= you > prefer, be it Python-style indentation or some fancy LaTeX formatting= . I consider it as problematic when programming languages need strong tool support to be easy to read. With the right tools, even Java is nice to use. Changing indentation sensitive code needs some tool support to be elegant, but that is available in most editors, but reading does not. And I=E2=80=99ve been stuck in too many github diffs to consider t= hat as a solved problem :) > > It isn=E2=80=99t necessary to sacrifice the strengths of Scheme to = become as > > easy for new programmers as Python. However it does require accepti= ng > > that a large part of the utility of any language lies in its > > libraries: The best language for any job is the one which provides = the > > solution off-the-shelf. >=20 > Fine. But I don't find it disturbing that this "useful language with = tons > of great libraries" is called Racket or Guile, rather than Scheme. This week a Freenet user wrote a client to Freenet in Racket. I wanted to use it for Guile, but since I didn=E2=80=99t really know the capacit= ies of Racket, I didn=E2=80=99t know how to replicate them in Guile. I asked t= he user whether he/she could port to Guile and after a few days he/she published a Guile version but stated that it did not work yet. One hour of fixing later I had it running. Why I write that: For large projects it might be relatively easy to do the conversion, because the compatibility layers are only a small part of the total code base. The saved time by reusing existing code is much larger than the time spent doing the compatibility stuff. For small projects, it can be a blocker. You can=E2=80=99t spend a few days= waiting and 1 hour porting for programs which just take 4 hours to write. Or rather: You can=E2=80=99t do that if you need to combine many= small projects into a bigger whole. > I will agree with you if you show me one example of successful deploy= ment > of Guile or Racket. Like, Python has some impressive tools like Djang= o or > Enaml. Can you give me clear criteria for when you would consider a deployment as successful? > > But someone has to actually do that: Creating libraries with > > consistent style which provide to the application developer what > > Scheme already provides to the language developer. > > >=20 > I agree. But from my experience, in order to make a useful library, i= t is > best to work on some real applications. I agree. > I think it is actually reasonable to think that the power of a progra= mming > language manifests itself in the applications that are written in tha= t > language. I agree, too. So our viewpoints don=E2=80=99t seem to be that far away from each othe= r :) Best wishes, Arne --nextPart4515965.HDTh06HHjH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iJwEAAEIAAYFAlYLIlYACgkQ3M8NswvBBUjhMQP/U0nP+5Ql2T9cnR6h1Bg+foCI CPZwLGGduGEBllnWFHRsie2cbxxW5NQCyG2OK+xycme8Hlr+oOpWng2ovNfuKUn9 GPC5YnqXMzfR+6T94DdRP2bHyMiqA1ZdswZU1DhDGivZxQXfauyoPFdc3Vx0/9yh 6RAb5gyisSA8q3gp1OI= =lSDZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart4515965.HDTh06HHjH--