Re: What is Guile?

* Re: What is Guile?
       [not found] <3EF2F7DF008213D5@pop3.es.tisadm.net>
@ 2003-09-02 16:47 ` Tom Lord
  2003-09-03 20:43   ` Han-Wen Nienhuys
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2003-09-02 18:08 ` What is Guile?y Thamer Al-Harbash
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lord @ 2003-09-02 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: guile-devel

    > From: Ricard Mira <ricardmm@tiscali.es>

    > What is Guile?

    > Guile is the GNU *multi-lingual extensibility interpreter*.  The
    > goal of the Guile project is to give users a choice of extension
    > language.

As a point of history, being multi-lingual was _a_ goal, but certainly
not _the_ goal.   RMS still highlights the multi-lingual goal in some
of his talks, but I think he is misplacing emphasis.

Having a standard, powerful, extension language was more of a
priority.  Emacsen (and much else, besides) had proven that lisps are
a good choice of extension languages, and we were interested in
building on that observation.

At the time that the Guile project started (back when it was called
GEL), Sun was pushing Tcl as a proposed "universal scripting language"
and the distinction, if there is one, between extension languages and
scripting languages was not very clear.  This was shortly before Oak
was released as Java.  The social dynamic around this kind of thing
was somewhat different back then -- there was no /., no freshmeat, and
barely a linux, for example.  Sun was not in so much of a slump, at
the time.  When Sun started making press releases about Tcl as the
universal scripting language, it seemed plausible that that would have
a nearly irresistible impact.  Even Usenix got in on the act and
started hosting conferences devoted to Tcl.

In short, Tcl seemed to have a lot of "mindshare", especially with
people who had only a casual interest in extensible applications and
extension languages.  In my own rather unpleasant experience, I had a
project to build an extensible application canceled out from under me
because I had decided to use GEL (Guile) rather than Tcl.

The experience of some of us, which assured us that Tcl was not a good
choice for an extension language, was difficult to argue for.  The Tcl
implementation was unusually clean and simple code.  The language was
easy to learn.  Tk was an nearly unprecendented set of functionality
to offer in a tiny interpreted language for unix-like environments.
To a casual observer, those virtues of Tcl were the most important
thing.

Several of us agreed, though, that Tcl had some serious problems.
While it was a clean language if compared to, say, sh -- it was
nevertheless a string-based language with the weaknesses that that
implied.  It didn't support garbage collected types and, generally,
had limited data structures.  It didn't support closure but did
support some vaguely similar constructs that had their own problems.
And so on....

When we started talking about using Guile instead of Tcl, people often
replied with various things they liked about Tcl.   For many small
programs, a string-based langauge is convenient.   Many people
preferred Tcl's syntax to a lisp syntax.   Back then, people could
still be taken seriously if they said "garbage collection is bad."

So we pointed out that Scheme was more powerful, more flexible.  We
pointed out that Tcl-like languages could be implemented (well) as
libraries for Guile, but that the reverse was not true.  One of the
graduate students who worked on Tcl even supported our arguments by
implementing Rush -- a nearly-Tcl language -- in Guile.  He went on to
suggest a set of changes that should be made to Tcl as a result of
what he had learned (with the aim of making Tcl faster and more
compilable, mostly by making it semantically cleaner).   (His work did
have influence on the language design of Tcl and on implementation
changes that made Tcl faster

For my part, shortly after Java was released, I demonstrated a C-like
syntax for Guile.   I think that, quite bitrotted now, that code is
still floating around.

So in the Propoganda, these ideas got very oversimplified.   I can't
speak for RMS but for my part, I wanted to try to consciousness raise
people to realize that the language wars were pointless.   You want to
use a different syntax?   That's a trivial matter.   You want
string-based data types?   That's just a library.   The important
thing was to make the core of the extension language a powerful and
fully general run-time system and interpreter, ideally based on a
language with good prospects for efficient compilation.

Nowadays, Tcl is mostly quiet (relatively speaking).  Python and Java
have a lot of "mindshare" (as do some other languages).  As with
Common Lisp, a large part of the economic effectiveness of those
languages comes from the wide range of available libraries for them.

The dominant importance of the libraries is, in retrospect, a quite
obvious development.   It also puts a serious crimp in the value of 
an extension language being "multi-lingual".   

Sure, a multi-lingual framework can, in some sense, use the set-union
of all of those libraries.  On the other hand, the "styles" of various
languages are sufficiently different that such library sharing is of
distinctly limited utility.  A good Python library is not necessarily
a good Scheme library or a good Java library or a good Tcl library.
You can glue the libraries together in a pinch -- but to make a
programming environment that is comprehensive yet compact and clean,
you're probably better off sticking to just one programming language.

Nowadays, I don't think people care too much if you happen to be able
to program Guile in Python.  (Evidence for this can be seen in the
Real Soon Now translator for Python->Guile.)  Perhaps if
Python-in-Guile offered significantly better performance or profoundly
new capabilities for Python programmers it would be a bigger deal ---
but merely being able to type in some Python syntax and sorta-kinda
use Python libraries is not a very compelling story.

So, in short, I would not recommend starting off the Guile manual in
the way you have quoted above.    And, if _I_ were maintaining Guile,
looking around at the scene, I think I'd be thinking about how to make
a really great extended Scheme, fast, clean, and small.

Finally, let me say this about Tcl: in some cases, garbage collection
_is_ bad.  In some cases, a language that can be implemented well in
<20K LOC is a serious virtue.  Tcl is not necessarily a great language
design -- but it's implementation continues to have many virtues in
some circumstances.  I now think that rather than just thinking about
a "multi-lingual extensibility interpreter", there would be some value
in thinking about how to design Tcl or Python-like languages that
admit tiny, simple implementation -- but that also "pun" as a subset
of a lisp dialect.  You can use the smaller language when you want --
but then you also have the option of scaling to the larger language,
sharing _some_ libraries between the languages, and exchanging data
between the languages.

-t

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