1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Evan Prodromou]

Umm, so, the Freshmeat page for Guile:

     http://freshmeat.net/projects/guile/

...hasn't been updated since 1998.

I just did a release notification on Freshmeat for 1.5.6, but this
should probably be a standard part of making new releases, no?

~ESP

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org> writes:

> I just did a release notification on Freshmeat for 1.5.6, but this
> should probably be a standard part of making new releases, no?

Sounds like a good idea.

I also agree that we could use some more centralized information.  For
example, it would be nice if we could provide inter-release info
somewhere -- right now 1.5.6 is broken wrt threads, but I'm waiting
for the snarfing updates before releasing a new version.

I suppose with some conventions we could handle this with the BUGS
file -- if the bug could be listed in the 1.6 CVS BUGS file but be
marked as fixed, then the BUGS processing script could list it on the
web page as "fixed - pending release" or similar.  That would be quite
handy.

I'd also wondered if we might want to talk about trying out one of the
bug-tracking systems with guile -- for example, I've had a little
experience with bugzilla lately and it seems pretty interesting.  Not
the most polished user-interface, but quite flexible -- though IMO it
really needs an email interface, perhaps one that (unlike Debian's)
requires some kind of special format for submissions (spammers have
started hitting the bug tracker NNNN@bugs.debian.org addresses lately
:<).

I'm also happy if we'd just like to work with the BUGS files and see
how that works out.  The BUGS files are certainly convenient to edit;
although having separate files for each tree means there's potential
for skew, and it's a bit harder to maintain information for a bug that
applies to both trees.

(If we had enough time to work on it, I think it'd be nice to have all
 the bugs in a postgres DB with both an email interface (via GPG
 signed messages), and an SSL web interface.  Then we could have all
 the per-release severity levels, status flags, summary lists,
 etc. that we could ever want, and we could probably do all the coding
 from guile via guile-pg or similar.)

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Evan Prodromou]

>>>>> "RB" == Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org> writes:

    RB> (If we had enough time to work on it, I think it'd be nice to
    RB> have all the bugs in a postgres DB with both an email
    RB> interface (via GPG signed messages), and an SSL web interface.
    RB> Then we could have all the per-release severity levels, status
    RB> flags, summary lists, etc. that we could ever want, and we
    RB> could probably do all the coding from guile via guile-pg or
    RB> similar.)

This is, of course, the best solution. However, right now it seems
like tracking bugs is the most important thing, and prioritizing them
is the next most important. So maybe using the admittedly low-tech
BUGS file mechanism (OK, I know, a text file shared across the world
in the blink of an eye is hardly low-tech) means that bugs get handled
fast, like _now_, rather than waiting for The Right Tool.

~ESP

P.S. I dunno anything about savannah, but maybe the next step after
getting bugs into BUGS an prioritized is to see about opening up the
bug tracking system there? Should be fairly low barrier to entry.

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Tom Lord]

   From: Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org>
   Umm, so, the Freshmeat page for Guile:

	http://freshmeat.net/projects/guile/

   ...hasn't been updated since 1998.

   I just did a release notification on Freshmeat for 1.5.6, but this
   should probably be a standard part of making new releases, no?


Yes, please.  Freshmeat status is easy to keep up to date (less than
one hour of work per update).  It's pretty well indexed and collects a
lot of useful information in their standard classifications.  It's the
first place some of us search whenever we need some component.  It's
the library catalog.

-t


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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Tom Lord]

   From: Tom Lord <lord@regexps.com>
      From: Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org>
      Umm, so, the Freshmeat page [...]
      I just did a release notification on Freshmeat for 1.5.6, but this
      should probably be a standard part of making new releases, no?


   Yes, please.  Freshmeat status is easy to keep up to date (less than
   one hour of work per update).  It's pretty well indexed and collects a
   lot of useful information in their standard classifications.  It's the
   first place some of us search whenever we need some component.  It's
   the library catalog.


I should also add: Freshmeat listings get duplicated and emailed out
all over the place.  Lot's of people are apparently like me and scan
the new listings frequently to keep up with what's going on.  It's a
really, neat thing.

-t


(Of course I'm still all pissed about #f/nil, shared substrings,
conservative GC, obnoxious "triumverant" comments, etc. and Guile just
plain sucks, in my book, but since that isn't a universal opinion --
by all means, please keep the FM listing up-to-date.)

(Oh, ok, if I must:  :-) ... whatever that means.)


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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Evan Prodromou]

>>>>> "TL" == Tom Lord <lord@regexps.com> writes:

    TL> [Freshmeat.net is] the first place some of us search whenever
    TL> we need some component.  It's the library catalog.

Well, the link went out today, and there were a ton of hits. Sadly,
it's probably going to still be hard for people who come to the Guile
site to find and download 1.5.6 (or know how to file bugs). It'd be
really nice to have an announce on the home page or at least a mention
of 1.5.6 in the download section.

~ESP

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Evan Prodromou]

>>>>> "TL" == Tom Lord <lord@regexps.com> writes:

    TL> (Of course I'm still all pissed about #f/nil, shared
    TL> substrings, conservative GC, obnoxious "triumverant" comments,
    TL> etc. and Guile just plain sucks, in my book, but since that
    TL> isn't a universal opinion -- by all means, please keep the FM
    TL> listing up-to-date.)

What's a "triumverant" comment? Do you mean triple-; comments, or some
kind of accusation of a "triumverate" somewhere? I guess I missed this
stuff.

I'm afraid that you've got a weird point about Guile not being all it
could be, and frankly I think it's an organizational rather than a
technical problem. (This has come up before.) I really admire what
Robert and Thi have been doing to try to make this project work like,
well, A REAL PROJECT, and not like a three-ring circus.

~ESP

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org> writes:

> Well, the link went out today, and there were a ton of hits. Sadly,
> it's probably going to still be hard for people who come to the
> Guile site to find and download 1.5.6 (or know how to file
> bugs). It'd be really nice to have an announce on the home page or
> at least a mention of 1.5.6 in the download section.

Well, hmm.  I'd be happy to edit a file that affects the guile web
pages whenever I release.  Is that possible as things stand right now,
or would I need further permissions?

FWIW until lately I haven't been as agressive wrt guile as I might
have liked, outside of posting to guile-devel and hacking on code.
That's been in part because I've had at least a year of serious and
continual "Real Life(TM)" distractions, and in part because I haven't
been entirely sure what the scope of my activities *ought* to be, so I
was being conservative by default.

Fortunately the former issue *appears* to be clearing now (/me should
probably be knocking on wood), and so I should have the time to figure
out the latter :>

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Neil Jerram]

>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Lord <lord@regexps.com> writes:

    Tom> obnoxious "triumverant" comments

What are those?

        Neil


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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Neil Jerram]

>>>>> "Evan" == Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org> writes:

    Evan> I'm afraid that you've got a weird point about Guile not
    Evan> being all it could be, and frankly I think it's an
    Evan> organizational rather than a technical problem. (This has
    Evan> come up before.) I really admire what Robert and Thi have
    Evan> been doing to try to make this project work like, well, A
    Evan> REAL PROJECT, and not like a three-ring circus.

Well I'm afraid that's quite unfair to everyone that you haven't
mentioned.

Guile suffered for a long time from unclear purpose and political
confusion.  It's only because of the efforts over the last few years
of people like Jim, Gary, Mikael, Maciej, Marius, Greg H, Greg B,
Dirk, Michael, Jost, and others that don't spring to mind right now,
as well as Robert and Thi, that we are now on the verge of a 1.6
release that's worth getting excited about.

        Neil


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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Tom Lord]

       Evan:

       What's a "triumverant" comment? 

Ancient and mostly unimportant history: part of a coda on some flame
threads a few months back.


	I'm afraid that you've got a weird point about Guile not being
	all it could be, and frankly I think it's an organizational
	rather than a technical problem.

As a (mostly) lurker over the past few months, I've noticed lots of
little steps in directions I think are good.  I do have some technical
objections to the design, but agree that organizational problems are
more important to the other goals we might have in common.  Lots of
little steps is a good thing and nobody could ask for more in the
current circumstances; the bottleneck beyond that is a resource
constraint.

	I really admire what Robert and Thi have been doing to try to
	make this project work like, well, A REAL PROJECT, and not
	like a three-ring circus.

Yup.  The whole team.

-t

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Evan Prodromou]

>>>>> "NJ" == Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.uklinux.net> writes:

    Evan> I'm afraid that you've got a weird point about Guile not
    Evan> being all it could be, and frankly I think it's an
    Evan> organizational rather than a technical problem.

    NJ> Well I'm afraid that's quite unfair to everyone that you
    NJ> haven't mentioned.

It probably is.

    NJ> Guile suffered for a long time from unclear purpose and
    NJ> political confusion.

Well, I'm a relatively recent newcomer, so I don't really know. All I
can see are the artifacts of chaos in the source code and recent
efforts at getting things on a more reasonable line of development.

It of course makes sense that things were getting better long before I
got here. And of course it takes a village to raise a Guile, as they
say. So there are a ton of people that I didn't mention, because I
didn't know about them.

Anyway it happens, I want to see Guile grow and thrive, because I like
using it and I like the idea of it. I think clarity of purpose and
open, documented processes make things go better, but that's just me
and my experience.

~ESP

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org> writes:

> It of course makes sense that things were getting better long before
> I got here. And of course it takes a village to raise a Guile, as
> they say. So there are a ton of people that I didn't mention,
> because I didn't know about them.

Yep, Neil's completely right, but I can see how you might have gotten
a different impression.  Guile's had really talented people working on
it over the years, but hasn't quite gotten the overall focus it needs
to move forward with strength.  There are a variety of reasons for
that, but I'm hoping they're mostly behind us now.

FWIW I'm actually a relative newcomer to direct contribution, though
I've maintained the guile .debs for quite a while and watched the
project even longer.

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Marius Vollmer]

Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org> writes:

> Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org> writes:
> 
> > Well, the link went out today, and there were a ton of hits. Sadly,
> > it's probably going to still be hard for people who come to the
> > Guile site to find and download 1.5.6 (or know how to file
> > bugs). It'd be really nice to have an announce on the home page or
> > at least a mention of 1.5.6 in the download section.
> 
> Well, hmm.  I'd be happy to edit a file that affects the guile web
> pages whenever I release.  Is that possible as things stand right now,
> or would I need further permissions?

You should be able to modify the Guile HTML sources just like the
other sources.  See https://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group_id=39 for
instructions on how to access the (separate) HTML repository.

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Marius Vollmer <mvo@zagadka.ping.de> writes:

> You should be able to modify the Guile HTML sources just like the
> other sources.  See https://savannah.gnu.org/cvs/?group_id=39 for
> instructions on how to access the (separate) HTML repository.

Worked great, thanks.

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org>
   Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:47:42 -0600

   [...] not like a three-ring circus.

hmmm, three-ring circus organizational execution is pretty spectuclar.

thi


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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Evan Prodromou <evan@glug.org>
   Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:34:52 -0800

   I just did a release notification on Freshmeat for 1.5.6, but this
   should probably be a standard part of making new releases, no?

i'd like move RELEASE from guile-core into workbook/build/release.text
(and add recently discussed release requirements there), but HEAD and
branch_release-1-6 revisions are different.  how to merge them?

thi

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
   Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:12:33 -0600

   Well, hmm.  I'd be happy to edit a file that affects the guile web
   pages whenever I release.  Is that possible as things stand right now,
   or would I need further permissions?

this depends on the perms you have now (which should cover the
savannah-hosted guile tree in its entirety, yes?).

the web pages are under another cvsroot, but that ambiguity in
convention will fall in time, i'm sure.  a good start would be to grep
all the scripts (sh and scheme) for env vars, document them (groan), add
to that list GUILE_MAINTAINER_WEBPAGE_ROOT (or whatever).  then we can
write scripts that depend on this, the result being that whatever is not
possible now can be made possible, easily.

if you do intend to do this, please tickle TODO on the way in and out.

thi

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org> writes:

> this depends on the perms you have now (which should cover the
> savannah-hosted guile tree in its entirety, yes?).

Actually Marius got back to me a little while ago about this.  I had
the permissions already and just didn't know it :> I'll plan to look
in to adding a NEWS item whenever I release for a start and go from
there.

Thanks

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Rob Browning]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org> writes:

> i'd like move RELEASE from guile-core into workbook/build/release.text
> (and add recently discussed release requirements there), but HEAD and
> branch_release-1-6 revisions are different.  how to merge them?

Please do.  RELEASE from HEAD is wrong, the one in 1-6 is right -- I
was planning to update HEAD later, but moving it to workbook (and out
of the version specific dirs) would be even better.

Thanks

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
   Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:38:00 -0600

   Please do.  RELEASE from HEAD is wrong, the one in 1-6 is right -- I
   was planning to update HEAD later, but moving it to workbook (and out
   of the version specific dirs) would be even better.

ok, i'll do this.

thi

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Re: 1.5.6 Release Needs More Eyes

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@giblet.glug.org>
   Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:44:37 -0800

   ok, i'll do this.

ok done.  i've indicated "request for review" in the TODO.
see tasks/README on review protocol wrt TODO file.

thi

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