From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: jc zulian Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.bugs Subject: bug#10302: Some typos in web.texi documenation Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:08:25 +0100 Message-ID: References: <871us6mpcr.fsf@netris.org> <87ehw5vrx4.fsf@pobox.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be782a1388204b427e208 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1323983323 11371 80.91.229.12 (15 Dec 2011 21:08:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Mark H Weaver , 10302@debbugs.gnu.org To: Andy Wingo Original-X-From: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 15 22:08:38 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-bugs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIXe-0004xi-GW for guile-bugs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:08:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56719 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIXd-0007H9-FY for guile-bugs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:08:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:60090) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIXY-0007H3-WC for bug-guile@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:08:35 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIXX-0003VU-1p for bug-guile@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:08:32 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:39241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIXW-0003VQ-UA for bug-guile@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:08:31 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIYz-0002gk-NR for bug-guile@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:10:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: jc zulian Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-guile@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10302 X-GNU-PR-Package: guile X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 10302-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10302.132398340110324 (code B ref 10302); Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:10:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 10302) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2011 21:10:01 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIYy-0002gT-Lu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:10:00 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com ([74.125.83.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbIYw-0002gK-2X for 10302@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:09:59 -0500 Original-Received: by eekc14 with SMTP id c14so1315371eek.3 for <10302@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:08:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=E+a6NBHefbitRRGCOXLXnXTibPhhHzDdlOAyJ5k8fRQ=; b=WQLFfVkFaYwRive3vBHX9Gs0Fywzc/Ffvtwk3+M7rnBcItoVC8yYXGDK977Hf9oGbi aqscOn7dzSZbTCwDufIx/l+2mZDzwBNGu0jdYNa7l9ZV37ToWChhjHztoAXmaWJM94+x pMbfhc/IskCQgrMUkkFaqNr31WOeaqMbCfqys= Original-Received: by 10.213.22.74 with SMTP id m10mr885618ebb.40.1323983305783; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:08:25 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.213.9.208 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:08:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87ehw5vrx4.fsf@pobox.com> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:10:01 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-guile@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GUILE, GNU's Ubiquitous Extension Language" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.bugs:5979 Archived-At: --0015174be782a1388204b427e208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello, Allow me to share with you some ideas about this topic. To me the 'iff' was a typo at first sight for many reasons: - it looks like the regular type of typo one would do, pressing twice the same letter by leaving the finger too long on a key - the word doesn't exist in every dictionaries. I didn't find it in my English dictionary (regular one on paper) but I did however find it in wikipedia and on online dictionaries. - as a non-native-english speaker I never came across it before (although I read a lot in english, both technical and non-technical texts) Although it is "defined" in guile documentation in the typographical convention I wouldn't have had the idea to look there because it doesn't look like a typographical symbol. Usually those symbols are really looking like "real symbol", understand graphical symbol (ie any kind of arrows, or icons). Maybe it could be possible then to use one of the mathematical symbols used to represent iff. Then for sure it cannot be taken for a typo. Also I have the feeling that in the typographical convention of guile's documentation the meaning of iff is somewhat redefined. In there the meaning is "returns val if condition is true and #f otherwise" (if I understood correctly). But after having a quick read at the wikipedia page of iff I feel that the definitions are not exatly the same. But I might be wrong here, I never study mathematic to a high level and never approach the logic branch of it. Maybe another option could be to add a reference link where iff is used bringing readers to the typographical convention. Or it could be possible, as you already suggested, to use a more commonly used 'if' and build a longer sentence around it (eg if x then y otherwise z). These are my inputs on the topic, but I can't tell what would be best thing to do. But for sure I have learn something and won't get confused anymore. Regards, Jean-christophe On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Andy Wingo wrote: > Thanks for the follow-up, Mark. > > On Thu 15 Dec 2011 05:27, Mark H Weaver writes: > > > jc zulian writes: > >> While reading the documentation I came across some typos. Please find > >> attached a patch to correct those (I hope the patch format is > >> alright). > > > > Actually those are not typos. In mathematics, "iff" is widely > > understand to mean "if and only if". > > > > I guess this brings up a good point though: We should not assume that > > readers of the Guile manual are familiar with this terminology. > > Indeed, the intro notes this: > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Typographical-Conventions.html > > > I'm leaving this bug open as a reminder that occurrences of "iff" should > > probably be changed to something else. > > I wonder, it might be the right thing just to change them all to "if". > WDYT? > > Andy > -- > http://wingolog.org/ > --0015174be782a1388204b427e208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Allow me to share with you some ideas = about this topic.

To me the 'iff' was a ty= po at first sight for many reasons:
=A0 =A0- it looks like the re= gular type of typo one would do, pressing twice the same letter by leaving = the finger too long on a key
=A0 =A0- the word doesn't exist in every dictionaries. I didn'= t find it in my English dictionary (regular one on paper) but I did however= find it in wikipedia and on online dictionaries.
=A0 =A0- as a n= on-native-english speaker I never came across it before (although I read a = lot in english, both technical and non-technical texts)

Although it is "defined" in guile documentati= on in the typographical convention I wouldn't have had the idea to look= there because it doesn't look like a typographical symbol. Usually tho= se symbols are really looking like "real symbol", understand grap= hical symbol (ie any kind of arrows, or icons). Maybe it could be possible = then to use one of the mathematical symbols used to represent iff. Then for= sure it cannot be taken for a typo.

Also I have the feeling that in the typographical conve= ntion of guile's documentation the meaning of iff is somewhat redefined= . In there the meaning is "returns val if condition is true and #f oth= erwise" (if I understood correctly). But after having a quick read at = the wikipedia page of iff I feel that the definitions are not exatly the sa= me. But I might be wrong here, I never study mathematic to a high level and= never approach the logic branch of it.

Maybe another option could be to add a reference link w= here iff is used bringing readers to the typographical convention.

Or it could be possible, as you already suggested, to use = a more commonly used 'if' and build a longer sentence around it (eg= if x then y otherwise z).

These are my inputs on the topic, but I can't tell = what would be best thing to do. But for sure I have learn something and won= 't get confused anymore.

Regards,
Jean-christophe


On Thu, = Dec 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> wrote:
Thanks for the follow-up, Mark.

On Thu 15 Dec 2011 05:27, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> writes:

> jc zulian <jeanc= hristophe.zulian@gmail.com> writes:
>> While reading the documentation I came across some typos. Please f= ind
>> attached a patch to correct those (I hope the patch format is
>> alright).
>
> Actually those are not typos. =A0In mathematics, "iff" is wi= dely
> understand to mean "if and only if".
>
> I guess this brings up a good point though: We should not assume that<= br> > readers of the Guile manual are familiar with this terminology.

Indeed, the intro notes this:

=A0http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/= manual/html_node/Typographical-Conventions.html

> I'm leaving this bug open as a reminder that occurrences of "= iff" should
> probably be changed to something else.

I wonder, it might be the right thing just to change them all to &quo= t;if".
WDYT?

Andy
--
http://wingolog.org/=

--0015174be782a1388204b427e208--