From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thien-Thi Nguyen Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.bugs Subject: Re: [Bug-autogen] test failure with guile-2.0.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:25:33 +0200 Message-ID: <871uxrjyte.fsf@ambire.localdomain> References: <20110710.001131.2114114687665811411.pipping@lavabit.com> <4E1AFA72.2050803@gnu.org> <871uxud0s7.fsf@pobox.com> <4E1D95A0.60504@gnu.org> <87oc0yb8mh.fsf@pobox.com> <87oc0yp6ma.fsf@ambire.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1310750647 16029 80.91.229.12 (15 Jul 2011 17:24:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:24:07 +0000 (UTC) To: bug-guile@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 15 19:24:02 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-bugs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qhm7M-0001OW-8Z for guile-bugs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:24:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49068 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qhm7K-0003pf-Qh for guile-bugs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 13:23:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59675) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhlDP-0003ry-K2 for bug-guile@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:26:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhlDE-0002Er-RT for bug-guile@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:26:11 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp207.alice.it ([82.57.200.103]:54504) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QhlDE-0002Bh-8j for bug-guile@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 12:26:00 -0400 Original-Received: from ambire.localdomain (87.9.131.40) by smtp207.alice.it (8.5.124.08) id 4DFA189A030BC577 for bug-guile@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:25:41 +0200 Original-Received: from ttn by ambire.localdomain with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhlCn-0004Ik-RD for bug-guile@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:25:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87oc0yp6ma.fsf@ambire.localdomain> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:01:17 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 82.57.200.103 X-BeenThere: bug-guile@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GUILE, GNU's Ubiquitous Extension Language" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-guile-bounces+guile-bugs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.bugs:5735 Archived-At: () Thien-Thi Nguyen () Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:01:17 +0200 Try to jump up and see things from a perspective that includes the motion of the people who follow the leader. That will make you a better leader. A little bird had two things to say to me: - that was a pretty wise-ass way to say things (w/ emphasis on ASS); - what makes you an expert at being a leader? To the first, i guess everyone is entitled to their preferred analogy. Perhaps a better blend might have been to take the recent post by Andy wrt lambda tribalism and draw the analogy between the benefits of functional st= yle programming and functional style interface design, or rather the latent woe associated with their non-functional practice. In this case, "semantics changed while name unchanged" is basically a big fat =E2=80=98set!=E2=80=99= to the libguile API. Reasoning and optimizations are out the window because the trust is broken. We revert to coping behaviors and ugly gnashing (e.g., Guile-BAUX). But i didn't have the energy to say that then, and this brings me to the second answer: i am no expert at being a leader, but i know regret when i f= eel it. I feel regret now for not finding the energy then, but i also felt reg= ret then, as a feeling i would not wish upon Andy in the future, with the =E2= =80=98set!=E2=80=99 fanout growing ever larger, with long-time Guile users dying a little inside at every thought of balancing new-and-shiny cool w/ new-and-shiny pain, with that soreness manifesting in mostly-offtopic threads, etc, etc. That way l= ies dissipation. It doesn't need to be that way if with functional style interface design, b= ut of course, w/ more bindings, the burden of unfettered generation can indeed weigh heavy. Hopefully, this serves to push back onto the designer the need to really think things through, to account for continuity and compatability= in the quest for new functionality. I suppose the trick is to use the regret = you know you will feel to fuel the intensity of the design process, kind of like consciously structuring code to avoid =E2=80=98set!=E2=80=99. To get back on-topic, since the change was relatively recent, one way forwa= rd would be to revert it and redesign. We could simply say "ok, that was a mistake, please avoid Guile 2.0.[01] (or whatever), sorry we will be more careful in the future". The other way is to do as Bruce suggests, add anot= her interface element. To me, the former takes some chutzpah but is preferable anyway -- it shows a balance of strength and gentleness, not to mention reg= ret.