Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Emacs,

In the definition of `make-obsolete' (in
.../lisp/emacs-list/run-byte.el), the third parameter WHEN is &optional.

At least it was until somebody changed the interactive form to make WHEN
mandatory, on the pretext that "New code should always provide the `when'
argument.".

Please can we remove this Cleverness?  `make-obsolete' also has to work
on OLD code (sometimes very old code) written when WHEN was &optional.
There are 6 occurances inside CC Mode.  I really don't want to waste my
time trying to determine when each of these became obsolete.  There'll be
lots elsewhere too, probably.

The effect of this on me personally is to discourage me from clearing out
compilation warnings (of which there are ~55 in CC Mode).

Please can we have WHEN &optional again?

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 22:28, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> Please can we remove this Cleverness?  `make-obsolete' also has to work
> on OLD code (sometimes very old code) written when WHEN was &optional.
> There are 6 occurances inside CC Mode.  I really don't want to waste my
> time trying to determine when each of these became obsolete.  There'll be
> lots elsewhere too, probably.

Can't you just pass nil?

    Juanma

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Juanma,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 10:49:33PM +0200, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 22:28, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> > Please can we remove this Cleverness?  `make-obsolete' also has to work
> > on OLD code (sometimes very old code) written when WHEN was &optional.
> > There are 6 occurances inside CC Mode.  I really don't want to waste my
> > time trying to determine when each of these became obsolete.  There'll be
> > lots elsewhere too, probably.

> Can't you just pass nil?

I suppose so.  It just doesn't seem a very good use of time.  This issue
has been bugging me for ages to an extent just below that which prompts
urgent action.  That's why I'm so annoyed.  There are enough real
problems to solve that we shouldn't have to lose time and temper dealing
with artificial ones.

>     Juanma

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> Hi, Emacs,
>
> In the definition of `make-obsolete' (in
> .../lisp/emacs-list/run-byte.el), the third parameter WHEN is &optional.
>
> At least it was until somebody changed the interactive form to make WHEN
> mandatory, on the pretext that "New code should always provide the `when'
> argument.".
>

byte-run.el still says:

(defun make-obsolete (obsolete-name current-name &optional when)

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Dan,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 05:46:31PM -0400, Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> > Hi, Emacs,

> > In the definition of `make-obsolete' (in
> > .../lisp/emacs-list/run-byte.el), the third parameter WHEN is &optional.

> > At least it was until somebody changed the interactive form to make WHEN
> > mandatory, on the pretext that "New code should always provide the `when'
> > argument.".


> byte-run.el still says:

> (defun make-obsolete (obsolete-name current-name &optional when)

It does.  The next form after this defun,
`set-advertised-calling-convention' hides the &optional.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Stefan Monnier]

> Please can we remove this Cleverness?  `make-obsolete' also has to work
> on OLD code (sometimes very old code) written when WHEN was &optional.

It's still optional, although the byte-compiler doesn't know it so
it complains.


        Stefan

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Stefan,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:55:33PM +0200, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Please can we remove this Cleverness?  `make-obsolete' also has to work
> > on OLD code (sometimes very old code) written when WHEN was &optional.

> It's still optional, although the byte-compiler doesn't know it so
> it complains.

Stefan, the following is a lie - a barefaced lie:

    "cc-cmds.el:326:2:Warning: make-obsolete called with 2 arguments, but
    requires 3".

It's a mendacious attempt, by deceit, to force hackers into
doing what's considered good for them.  It's not something which happened
accidentally; code was deliberately inserted so as to hide WHEN's
optionality.

What effect does this have?  I can only answer for me, but...  It's a
drag.  It makes the maintenance of my project less fun.  It raises
feelings of guilt and inadequacy in the face of the juggernaut that Emacs
has become.  Will CC Mode still work without crashing if a user stumbles
over one of these `make-obsolete's?  I know the answer now, but I didn't
between when this change was done and yesterday.

Please can't we have the REAL argument list back in the byte compiler?

>         Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Stefan Monnier]

> Stefan, the following is a lie - a barefaced lie:
>     "cc-cmds.el:326:2:Warning: make-obsolete called with 2 arguments, but
>     requires 3".

The &optional is obsolete.  So whether it's a lie or not, I'll let you
decide, but the intention is to let people know that their code needs to
be updated.


        Stefan

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Stefan,

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:38:09PM +0200, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Stefan, the following is a lie - a barefaced lie:
> >     "cc-cmds.el:326:2:Warning: make-obsolete called with 2 arguments, but
> >     requires 3".

> The &optional is obsolete.  So whether it's a lie or not, I'll let you
> decide, but the intention is to let people know that their code needs
> to be updated.

Just to be clear here, I'm thoroughly in favour of the WHEN parameter
being supplied to make-obsolete.  Just that I feel messed around with,
due to the wording of the message.

How about instead being honest with our hackers, and giving a message
something like:

"cc-cmds.el:326:2:Warning: Please consider supplying a third parameter
\"when\" in invocations of make-obsolete".  Is the byte-compiler
flexible enough to support the output of such messages?

>         Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: Please restore `make-obsolete''s functionality.

[Stefan Monnier]

> How about instead being honest with our hackers, and giving a message
> something like:

> "cc-cmds.el:326:2:Warning: Please consider supplying a third parameter
> \"when\" in invocations of make-obsolete".  Is the byte-compiler
> flexible enough to support the output of such messages?

Of course, but it requires a bit more code first to keep track of
whether the arglist is "real" or "advertized".  I.e. patches welcome (a
good starting point is to look at the commits that add
set-advertised-calling-convention).


        Stefan