From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mohsen BANAN Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.bidi Subject: Re: `C-b' is backward-char, `left' is left-char - why? Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:46:16 -0700 Organization: ByStar Federation of Autonomous Libre Services -- http://www.by-star.net Message-ID: References: <6F4054004B154CFB8E2753172D316C13@us.oracle.com> <83tycfc0l0.fsf@gnu.org> <392401A7079D400E86B791262598387D@us.oracle.com> <87boynkcjp.fsf@gmail.com> <32C1BA101EF548F9ACEA6E496DD8019E@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1306543595 23282 80.91.229.12 (28 May 2011 00:46:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 00:46:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-bidi@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Antoine Levitt' To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat May 28 02:46:27 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ7ff-0008L3-2E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 May 2011 02:46:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39640 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ7fe-0006za-D1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:46:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ7fc-0006zV-EU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:46:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ7fa-0002kn-6M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:46:24 -0400 Original-Received: from 0016.bacs.by-star.net ([198.62.92.166]:36586) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ7fZ-0002kW-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:46:22 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 19083 invoked from network); 27 May 2011 17:41:51 -0700 Original-Received: from 192.168.0.187 ([192.168.0.187]) by 0016.bacs.by-star.net ([198.62.92.166]) with ESMTP via TCP; 28 May 2011 00:41:51 -0000 X-Form-Name: murl-sendlink-toCloseFriends In-Reply-To: <32C1BA101EF548F9ACEA6E496DD8019E@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 27 May 2011 16:19:16 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 198.62.92.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:139800 gmane.emacs.bidi:890 Archived-At: >>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2011 16:19:16 -0700, "Drew Adams" said: >> why do you need "C-f" and "right" to be the same thing? Drew> I don't. Why do we need them to be different, by default? Drew> That's the question I posed (`C-b' and `left', actually). Drew> Haven't seen an answer yet, except that bidi needs them to be diffe= rent. The Drew> question then is why bidi's-need-for-this needs to become Drew> Emacs's-need-in-general (all the time, everywhere, for everyone)? Drew> As I said clearly several times, if it must, it must. Really not a= big deal. Drew> Just asking whether and why it must. ... Drew> I don't have a better idea than a minor mode, but I know _zero_ abo= ut bidi and Drew> its implementation. Better ideas are certainly welcome. As you sa= id, "what's Drew> the point of changing stuff that works fine?" If we must, we must.= But must Drew> we? Why? If you were to view emacs as a gift from the engineering profession to humanity, and if you were to re-read Eli's previous note your questions are answered. Additionally, please let me present the perspective of one who needs, cares-about and uses bidi -- note that after Latin, Perso/Arabic script is the most widely used character set family on this planet. Just like you, I fire up emacs with its default settings, I go into Gnus and open a message. That message could be in English/Globish or Farsi/Arabic/Hebrew (=D9=81=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=89/=D8=B9=D8=B1=D8=A8=D9= =89) or mixed. Then I try to reply and edit it in Farsi and use and keys as they make sense in my context. Why should that natural behavior not be default? Why should I, as a bidi user, have to over write any defaults to do what could be natural for both you (non-bidi-user) and I (bidi-user).=20 Are non-Latin character set users of emacs second class citizens in your view? Because left-to-right got done before right-to-left, now can not be different from 'C-b'?=20 Sure, there could be some lines of code related to this that would need to change as we go from 23 to 24 (how big of a deal is that anyway?) Please explain to us why you think that Eli's solution is not the most reasonable? I am curious. ...=D9=85=D8=AD=D8=B3=D9=86 ...Mohsen