Best Emacs Mail client.

Best Emacs Mail client.

[M.R.P. zensky]

Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look elsware?

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Skip Montanaro]

> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use.
>

When I first started reading email in Emacs, probably 30 years ago, I used
Rmail. I eventually switched to vm because it sorted mbox format. I haven't
used either in a long while, but I'm fairly certain they both support IMAP.
I'm lazy and just use Gmail these days, but still use vm to work through
email categorized as unsure by SpamBayes on mail.python.org.

Skip

>

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[George Hartzell]

Skip Montanaro writes:
 > > Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use.
 > >
 > 
 > When I first started reading email in Emacs, probably 30 years ago, I used
 > Rmail. I eventually switched to vm because it sorted mbox format. I haven't
 > used either in a long while, but I'm fairly certain they both support IMAP.
 > I'm lazy and just use Gmail these days, but still use vm to work through
 > email categorized as unsure by SpamBayes on mail.python.org.
 > 
 > Skip

I can second VM.  It's moribund as a project but keeps on working.

g.

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Doug Davis]

I use mbsync [1] to sync emails with IMAP servers, msmtp for sending
over SMTP [2], and mu4e [3] for reading mail (and steering msmtp) in
Emacs. I'd recommend the setup to anyone -- I have multiple accounts
operating smoothly with it.

[1] http://isync.sourceforge.net/
[2] https://marlam.de/msmtp/
[3] http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

Doug Davis <ddavis@ddavis.io> writes:

> I use mbsync [1] to sync emails with IMAP servers,

instead, i use getmail then `G f' open the mbox.

screenshot: (very fast than imap)
https://gitlab.com/soyeomul/Gnus/blob/master/ss/Screenshot_from_2019-10-30_10-51-31.png

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jude DaShiell]

gnus may eventually be useable but that will need a real competent
documentation rewrite.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Doug Davis wrote:

> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:23:43
> From: Doug Davis <ddavis@ddavis.io>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>
> I use mbsync [1] to sync emails with IMAP servers, msmtp for sending
> over SMTP [2], and mu4e [3] for reading mail (and steering msmtp) in
> Emacs. I'd recommend the setup to anyone -- I have multiple accounts
> operating smoothly with it.
>
> [1] http://isync.sourceforge.net/
> [2] https://marlam.de/msmtp/
> [3] http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/
>
>

-- 

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

In addition, thanks Doug for recommending MU4E.
Someday i want to test MU4E ;;;

Doug Davis <ddavis@ddavis.io> writes:

> [...snip...]
> [3] http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jean Louis]

* M.R.P. zensky <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> [2019-10-29 23:06]:
> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do
> not want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> elsware?

Well... I also wonder about that.

For me, so far, the best way to handle large amounts of emails is
using emacs-libvterm module
https://github.com/jixiuf/emacs-libvterm and mutt email client under
the libvterm within emacs. http://www.mutt.org

I am using Maildirs, for which Emacs does not have support, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir

In my setup every conversation is saved to the ~/Maildir folder
correspoding to the email, like ~/Maildir/user@example.com then I can
quickly open up previous conversation with the user.

Rmail reads from rmail/mbox file. Not from IMAP. POP you should not
even use, change your provider if you are offered POP. Use always
secure connections to IMAP.

movemail software can move from IMAP to local folder. movemail utility
you may find in GNU Mailutils, being better than the movemail bundled
with the Emacs, see http://www.mailutils.org/ it works like charm, and
it is GNU. It can do some serious magic in handling emails.

My fcrontab entry is:

@ 5 /home/data1/protected/bin/rcd/move-mail.lisp

which is outside script that runs movemail for few IMAP boxes, and
moves mail to local ~/Maildir but you could adapt it to move mail to
local mbox file. Then you could read it with Rmail, which is quite
good in handling emails, but not reliable for me, as I am accessing
emails sometimes with multiple instances of mutt or other tools.

There are other packages for email handling in Emacs, you could look
in list of packages, like Wonderlust and MH-E which is I think built
in package. MH-E is better than Rmail in my opinion, it has good
features and handling of emails, see info for: mh-e

Yet those I cannot use, as I am using Maildir format, for me, mutt is
great solution, and it is running within Emacs frame.

Jean

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[arthur miller]

I understand that guns have some rather steep learning curve, but so does Emacs. However both gmail and nowadays outlook/live/hotmail have switched pretty much to same model of displaying messages as webforum disscution/conversation. It feels as a quite solid proof of concept to me, so it might be worth investment to learn few new shortcuts and use built in guns.

I use it myself for gmail and live as imap client and works fine. Did required some hair pulling to initially configure until I got it, but it works quite fine, just like any other client, with bonus of no additional software needed.

I don't use 3rd party clients like notmuch or similar to download mail either, I just do with guns.

I understand it is exact contrary of what you ask for, so feel free to ignore my opinion, I just ment to give you a second thought about guns since it is already in Emacs and thus convenient to use.

Best regards
/a



Skickat från min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.


-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
Datum: 2019-11-27 08:54 (GMT+01:00)
Till: "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com>
Kopia: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Ämne: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

* M.R.P. zensky <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> [2019-10-29 23:06]:
> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do
> not want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> elsware?

Well... I also wonder about that.

For me, so far, the best way to handle large amounts of emails is
using emacs-libvterm module
https://github.com/jixiuf/emacs-libvterm and mutt email client under
the libvterm within emacs. http://www.mutt.org

I am using Maildirs, for which Emacs does not have support, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir

In my setup every conversation is saved to the ~/Maildir folder
correspoding to the email, like ~/Maildir/user@example.com then I can
quickly open up previous conversation with the user.

Rmail reads from rmail/mbox file. Not from IMAP. POP you should not
even use, change your provider if you are offered POP. Use always
secure connections to IMAP.

movemail software can move from IMAP to local folder. movemail utility
you may find in GNU Mailutils, being better than the movemail bundled
with the Emacs, see http://www.mailutils.org/ it works like charm, and
it is GNU. It can do some serious magic in handling emails.

My fcrontab entry is:

@ 5 /home/data1/protected/bin/rcd/move-mail.lisp

which is outside script that runs movemail for few IMAP boxes, and
moves mail to local ~/Maildir but you could adapt it to move mail to
local mbox file. Then you could read it with Rmail, which is quite
good in handling emails, but not reliable for me, as I am accessing
emails sometimes with multiple instances of mutt or other tools.

There are other packages for email handling in Emacs, you could look
in list of packages, like Wonderlust and MH-E which is I think built
in package. MH-E is better than Rmail in my opinion, it has good
features and handling of emails, see info for: mh-e

Yet those I cannot use, as I am using Maildir format, for me, mutt is
great solution, and it is running within Emacs frame.

Jean

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:54:20 +0100
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> I am using Maildirs, for which Emacs does not have support, see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir

AFAIK, Gnus does support Maildir.

> Rmail reads from rmail/mbox file. Not from IMAP. POP you should not
> even use, change your provider if you are offered POP. Use always
> secure connections to IMAP.

There's secure POP, sometimes called APOP, so it is entirely possible
to use Rmail securely.

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Pankaj Jangid]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> I am using Maildirs, for which Emacs does not have support, see
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir
> AFAIK, Gnus does support Maildir.

It does. But as far as I remember, Gnus stores some extra flags. This
makes it difficult to sync Maildir using tools like isync, offlineimap
etc.

So I use Gnus' built-in IMAP. It is slightly slower experience but it
makes me feel like a power-user.

Regards,
-- 
Pankaj Jangid

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Wednesday, 27 Nov 2019 at 18:24, Pankaj Jangid wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> AFAIK, Gnus does support Maildir.
>
> It does. But as far as I remember, Gnus stores some extra flags. This
> makes it difficult to sync Maildir using tools like isync, offlineimap
> etc.

and gnus nnmaildir scales very badly in some cases.  I like maildir as I
retrieve email on different systems but I gave up when scanning a group
took minutes.

I use gnus with nnml now with appropriate splitting rules to cater for
the use of multiple systems.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.2.6 on Debian 9.9

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

Hello zensky,

"M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:

> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> elsware?

Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:

- personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
- public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)

Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jude DaShiell]

Haven't been able to find anything on youtube that actually
concentrates on gnus.  Other mentions of gnus but those videos deal
with wonderlust and other packages.
I got gnus working with usenet but not e-mail yet.

wrote:

> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 04:44:32
> From: ??? <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>
> Hello zensky,
>
> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
>
> > Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
> > want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> > handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> > elsware?
>
> Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:
>
> - personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
> - public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)
>
> Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;
>
> Sincerely,
>
>

-- 

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Marcio T]

Same case for me. Newsgroups are already configured in Emacs/Gnus but
I am struggling with authentication problems when entering my user/pass.
Therefore I am using Thunderbird, but the goal is to move 100% to Emacs
as soon as I can get it working.

I found a few guides in Internet and none of them worked (so far) for me.

Cheers,

Marcio


On 27/11/2019 08:49, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Haven't been able to find anything on youtube that actually
> concentrates on gnus.  Other mentions of gnus but those videos deal
> with wonderlust and other packages.
> I got gnus working with usenet but not e-mail yet.
> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 04:44:32
>> From: ??? <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz>
>> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>>
>> Hello zensky,
>>
>> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
>>
>>> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
>>> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
>>> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
>>> elsware?
>>
>> Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:
>>
>> - personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
>> - public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)
>>
>> Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
> 

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[arthur miller]

See if this helps:

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Customizing-the-IMAP-Connection.html

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusGmail

https://koldfront.dk/text/gnus-email-tutorial.html


Here are few other clients + some gnus info:

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/12927/reading-and-writing-email-with-emacs

I am not at home and don't have my computer with me, otherwise I would post my authentication for gnus and gmail/live I use.  Will be back home in two days again.



Skickat från min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.


-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Marcio T <m963616@dac.unicamp.br>
Datum: 2019-11-27 18:11 (GMT+01:00)
Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Ämne: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

Same case for me. Newsgroups are already configured in Emacs/Gnus but
I am struggling with authentication problems when entering my user/pass.
Therefore I am using Thunderbird, but the goal is to move 100% to Emacs
as soon as I can get it working.

I found a few guides in Internet and none of them worked (so far) for me.

Cheers,

Marcio


On 27/11/2019 08:49, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Haven't been able to find anything on youtube that actually
> concentrates on gnus.  Other mentions of gnus but those videos deal
> with wonderlust and other packages.
> I got gnus working with usenet but not e-mail yet.
>
> wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 04:44:32
>> From: ??? <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz>
>> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>>
>> Hello zensky,
>>
>> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
>>
>>> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
>>> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
>>> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
>>> elsware?
>>
>> Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:
>>
>> - personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
>> - public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)
>>
>> Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jude DaShiell]

App-Passwords and two-step authentication are not necessary to use
gmail.  Earlier with another account I had I set up two-step
authentication and my account got hacked.  So I deleted that account and
created another.  I have gmail working without app-passwords in mutt.
So for me, this makes two-step authentication and app-passwords all
questionable security features and definitely worthless.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, arthur miller wrote:

> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:01:24
> From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> To: Marcio T <m963616@dac.unicamp.br>,
>     "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>
> See if this helps:
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Customizing-the-IMAP-Connection.html
>
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusGmail
>
> https://koldfront.dk/text/gnus-email-tutorial.html
>
>
> Here are few other clients + some gnus info:
>
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/12927/reading-and-writing-email-with-emacs
>
> I am not at home and don't have my computer with me, otherwise I would post my authentication for gnus and gmail/live I use.  Will be back home in two days again.
>
>
>
> Skickat fr?n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
>
>
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> Fr?n: Marcio T <m963616@dac.unicamp.br>
> Datum: 2019-11-27 18:11 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> ?mne: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
>
> Same case for me. Newsgroups are already configured in Emacs/Gnus but
> I am struggling with authentication problems when entering my user/pass.
> Therefore I am using Thunderbird, but the goal is to move 100% to Emacs
> as soon as I can get it working.
>
> I found a few guides in Internet and none of them worked (so far) for me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marcio
>
>
> On 27/11/2019 08:49, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > Haven't been able to find anything on youtube that actually
> > concentrates on gnus.  Other mentions of gnus but those videos deal
> > with wonderlust and other packages.
> > I got gnus working with usenet but not e-mail yet.
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 04:44:32
> >> From: ??? <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz>
> >> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
> >>
> >> Hello zensky,
> >>
> >> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
> >>> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> >>> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> >>> elsware?
> >>
> >> Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:
> >>
> >> - personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
> >> - public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)
> >>
> >> Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>

-- 

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jude DaShiell wrote:

> App-Passwords and two-step authentication are
> not necessary to use gmail. Earlier with
> another account I had I set up two-step
> authentication and my account got hacked.
> So I deleted that account and created
> another. I have gmail working without
> app-passwords in mutt. So for me, this makes
> two-step authentication and app-passwords all
> questionable security features and
> definitely worthless.

I use SMTP and POP with an .authinfo file port
587 (starttls?) and port 995 (ssl),
respectively - here's all the Gnus [1] and
there should be nothing out of the ordinary -
well, if it is, that'd be wicked :)


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/gnus/

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Marcio Jose Teixeira]

Hi guys,

I found the problem. After reviewing carefully my settings I found the
problem was at Google. One needs to
allow access to "less secure apps" at
https://myaccount.google.com/lesssecureapps. I was so focused in .gnus
settings that I overlooked that detail. As always the devil lies in the
details.

After the change  everything ran perfectly. Other thing: in my case I
needed to inform explicitly the port used by SMTP.

Cheers,

Marcio


Em qui., 28 de nov. de 2019 às 09:01, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com>
escreveu:

> App-Passwords and two-step authentication are not necessary to use
> gmail.  Earlier with another account I had I set up two-step
> authentication and my account got hacked.  So I deleted that account and
> created another.  I have gmail working without app-passwords in mutt.
> So for me, this makes two-step authentication and app-passwords all
> questionable security features and definitely worthless.
>
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, arthur miller wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:01:24
> > From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> > To: Marcio T <m963616@dac.unicamp.br>,
> >     "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> > Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
> >
> > See if this helps:
> >
> >
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Customizing-the-IMAP-Connection.html
> >
> > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GnusGmail
> >
> > https://koldfront.dk/text/gnus-email-tutorial.html
> >
> >
> > Here are few other clients + some gnus info:
> >
> >
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/12927/reading-and-writing-email-with-emacs
> >
> > I am not at home and don't have my computer with me, otherwise I would
> post my authentication for gnus and gmail/live I use.  Will be back home in
> two days again.
> >
> >
> >
> > Skickat fr?n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
> >
> >
> > -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> > Fr?n: Marcio T <m963616@dac.unicamp.br>
> > Datum: 2019-11-27 18:11 (GMT+01:00)
> > Till: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > ?mne: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
> >
> > Same case for me. Newsgroups are already configured in Emacs/Gnus but
> > I am struggling with authentication problems when entering my user/pass.
> > Therefore I am using Thunderbird, but the goal is to move 100% to Emacs
> > as soon as I can get it working.
> >
> > I found a few guides in Internet and none of them worked (so far) for me.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Marcio
> >
> >
> > On 27/11/2019 08:49, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > > Haven't been able to find anything on youtube that actually
> > > concentrates on gnus.  Other mentions of gnus but those videos deal
> > > with wonderlust and other packages.
> > > I got gnus working with usenet but not e-mail yet.
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 04:44:32
> > >> From: ??? <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz>
> > >> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Best Emacs Mail client.
> > >>
> > >> Hello zensky,
> > >>
> > >> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
> > >>
> > >>> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do
> not
> > >>> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> > >>> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> > >>> elsware?
> > >>
> > >> Or, you would be make Gnus liks as:
> > >>
> > >> - personal messages is to join with nnimap (imap)
> > >> - public mailing messages is to join with Gmane (nntp)
> > >>
> > >> Your life will be more happy if you study gnus-posting-style ;;;
> > >>
> > >> Sincerely,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
>

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Herbert J. Skuhra]

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:05:16 +0100, "M.R.P. zensky" wrote:
> 
> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do
> not want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> elsware?

Wanderlust. Why is no one else suggesting it?
I use Gnus only for NNTP. I've never figured out how to speed it up.

--
Herbert

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[George Hartzell]

Herbert J. Skuhra writes:
 > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:05:16 +0100, "M.R.P. zensky" wrote:
 > > 
 > > Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do
 > > not want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
 > > handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
 > > elsware?
 > 
 > Wanderlust. Why is no one else suggesting it?
 > I use Gnus only for NNTP. I've never figured out how to speed it up.

Speaking of things that no one else is suggesting....

VM:  https://launchpad.net/vm

g.

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Herbert J. Skuhra wrote:

>> Hello I wondering what the best mail client
>> is for me to use. I do not want to use gnus.
>> I just want a really good mail client that
>> can handle pop and map. Can Rmail support
>> POP and Imap? Should I look elsware?
>
> Wanderlust. Why is no one else suggesting it?
> I use Gnus only for NNTP. I've never figured
> out how to speed it up.

That Gnus is slow is something I hear from time
to time so it must be true. But I never
experienced that! And I use it for NNTP/Usenet,
Gmane, and mail (the nnml backend). On an RPi3b
- CPU 1.2GHz, memory 1GB ... ?

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

> [... long line snip ...] On an RPi3b
> - CPU 1.2GHz, memory 1GB ... ?

WowowowoW you Emanuel amazing machine!!!

Sincerely, Gnus' fan Byung-Hee 

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> That Gnus is slow is something I hear from time
> to time so it must be true. But I never
> experienced that! And I use it for NNTP/Usenet,
> Gmane, and mail (the nnml backend). On an RPi3b
> - CPU 1.2GHz, memory 1GB ... ?

Delays in the range of minutes without any sysload
is what I get to experience - i386 + 1Gb.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

>> That Gnus is slow is something I hear from
>> time to time so it must be true. But I never
>> experienced that! And I use it for
>> NNTP/Usenet, Gmane, and mail (the nnml
>> backend). On an RPi3b - CPU 1.2GHz, memory
>> 1GB ... ?
>
> Delays in the range of minutes without any
> sysload is what I get to experience - i386
> + 1Gb.

OK, what exactly do you do that Gnus needs
minutes to perform?

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>> Delays in the range of minutes without any
>> sysload is what I get to experience - i386
>> + 1Gb.
>
> OK, what exactly do you do that Gnus needs
> minutes to perform?

Nothing there, the sysload is at zero baseline.
I continue on Emacs on separate other hardware.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

>> OK, what exactly do you do that Gnus needs
>> minutes to perform?
>
> Nothing there, the sysload is at zero
> baseline. I continue on Emacs on separate
> other hardware.

I'm not following...

Anyway I have used Gnus on three different
computers, none of them particularly fast by
today or yesterday's standards, and the RPi
mentioned in the thread (that I'm using as
I type this in a Gnus message buffer) certainly
isn't a beast, and cannot be, either.

I don't know what you guys are up to to make it
so slow, maybe I stumbled upon a brilliant
configuration that solved it. But I sort of
doubt it because the Gnus devel people, well
those who ain't do it as civilians so to speak,
they would have spotted it several times over
by now if it was the simple.

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>>
>> Nothing there, the sysload is at zero
>> baseline. I continue on Emacs on separate
>> other hardware.
>
> I'm not following...

The Gnus on i386+1gb stalls on start for
a long while.  The mouse pointer changes
to hourglass.  Gnus is unresponsive.
Possible causes for delay I can think of
would be observed in the sysload
climbing, but it doesn't.

> Anyway I have used Gnus on three different
> computers, none of them particularly fast by
> today or yesterday's standards, and the RPi
> mentioned in the thread (that I'm using as
> I type this in a Gnus message buffer) certainly
> isn't a beast, and cannot be, either.

I experience Gnus delay on 3 different
computers, because the delay didn't
cause sysload to climb I put Gnus on the
weakest computer.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

> The Gnus on i386+1gb stalls on start for
> a long while. The mouse pointer changes to
> hourglass. Gnus is unresponsive.
> Possible causes for delay I can think of
> would be observed in the sysload climbing,
> but it doesn't.

I just restarted Gnus after reading this the
first time. I'd say ~1.5s WCT.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> I just restarted Gnus after reading this the
> first time. I'd say ~1.5s WCT.

The delay was 42 seconds approximately the last
two Gnus starts separated a day apart.  The
mail provider is on the opposite side of the
planet.

I exaggerated the perceived minutes of delay
without measuring, before.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

> The delay was 42 seconds approximately the
> last two Gnus starts separated a day apart.
> The mail provider is on the opposite side of
> the planet.
>
> I exaggerated the perceived minutes of delay
> without measuring, before.

OK, it still seems a bit long for just text
messages...

I don't know the details but the mail provider
being on the other side of the planet,
shouldn't that, if indeed a problem, cause
similar delays for all mail clients?

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>> I exaggerated the perceived minutes of delay
>> without measuring, before.
>
> OK, it still seems a bit long for just text
> messages...
>
> I don't know the details but the mail provider
> being on the other side of the planet,
> shouldn't that, if indeed a problem, cause
> similar delays for all mail clients?

The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.  Not much there.
The sent folder has 5 items.  After the delayed
start, switching from mailbox to read 3 from

  121603 gmane.emacs.help

results in a delay of over 6 minutes.

  241026 gmane.emacs.devel

I wonder if the number of unread articles for
gmane is the cause.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:33:31 +1100, VanL <van@scratch.space> said:

    VanL> Emanuel Berg writes:
    >> VanL wrote:
    >> 
    >>> I exaggerated the perceived minutes of delay
    >>> without measuring, before.
    >> 
    >> OK, it still seems a bit long for just text
    >> messages...
    >> 
    >> I don't know the details but the mail provider
    >> being on the other side of the planet,
    >> shouldn't that, if indeed a problem, cause
    >> similar delays for all mail clients?

    VanL> The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.  Not much there.
    VanL> The sent folder has 5 items.  After the delayed
    VanL> start, switching from mailbox to read 3 from

    VanL>   121603 gmane.emacs.help

    VanL> results in a delay of over 6 minutes.

    VanL>   241026 gmane.emacs.devel

    VanL> I wonder if the number of unread articles for
    VanL> gmane is the cause.

It could be; itʼs certainly an unusual situation.

Itʼs easy to check:

    run 'c' on one of those groups
    enter it

You can exit Gnus with 'Q' afterwards and it won't save the fact that
you've caught up the group.

Robert

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>     VanL>   121603 gmane.emacs.help
>     VanL>   241026 gmane.emacs.devel
>
>     VanL> I wonder if the number of unread articles for
>     VanL> gmane is the cause.
>
> It could be; itʼs certainly an unusual situation.
>
> Itʼs easy to check:
>
>     run 'c' on one of those groups
>     enter it
>
> You can exit Gnus with 'Q' afterwards and it won't save the fact that
> you've caught up the group.

Gnus start delay is 45 seconds, consistently.

The 'c' keypress on gmane.emacs.devel group was followed by a 9 minute
delay before it prompted for the number of articles to list from the
group.

During the delay before entering group the top-process reading had
STATE:sleep and WAIT:select and CPU:0.00%.

At a next Gnus session entering gmane.emacs.help was immediate, the
large number of unread articles was to the left column from its name.

Maybe the delays are artifacts of Internet splintering.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Stefan Monnier]

> The 'c' keypress on gmane.emacs.devel group was followed by a 9 minute
> delay before it prompted for the number of articles to list from the
> group.

I seem to remember discussions about a problem in Emacs (mostly seen in Gnus)
where network connection get "stuck" or something like that.
Sounds like you're experiencing exactly that.


        Stefan

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

> The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.

What Gnus mail backend do you use?

> Not much there. The sent folder has 5 items.
> After the delayed start, switching from
> mailbox to read 3 from
>
>   121603 gmane.emacs.help
>
> results in a delay of over 6 minutes.
>
>   241026 gmane.emacs.devel
>
> I wonder if the number of unread articles for
> gmane is the cause.

Yes, why do you try to fetch 24 000+
articles? :O

Try this:

(setq gnus-interactive-catchup nil)

Then when you have been away from a group for
a while, in the Gnus group hit `c' for
`gnus-group-catchup-current' to get a fresh
start :)

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>> The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.
>
> What Gnus mail backend do you use?

Gnus mail uses imap.  The last nntp posting to here was immediate.  The
one before had 3 minute delay.

> Yes, why do you try to fetch 24 000+
> articles? :O

That large number counts all that is available, I get a prompt and pick
say 33 articles from that.

> Try this:
>
> (setq gnus-interactive-catchup nil)
>
> Then when you have been away from a group for
> a while, in the Gnus group hit `c' for
> `gnus-group-catchup-current' to get a fresh
> start :)

Will try that.  Thanks.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Tomas Nordin]

VanL <van@scratch.space> writes:

> Emanuel Berg writes:
>
>> VanL wrote:
>>
>>> I exaggerated the perceived minutes of delay
>>> without measuring, before.
>>
>> OK, it still seems a bit long for just text
>> messages...
>>
>> I don't know the details but the mail provider
>> being on the other side of the planet,
>> shouldn't that, if indeed a problem, cause
>> similar delays for all mail clients?
>
> The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.  Not much there.

YES! Notmuch is the best Emacs mail client

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Tomas Nordin <tomasn@posteo.net> writes:

>> The inbox has 5 emails, 1 unread.  Not much there.
>
> YES! Notmuch is the best Emacs mail client

Too late to include in the 27 release?

-- 
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  School of Secret Art
  əə0@ 一 二 三 言 語 𝔖

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Pankaj Jangid]

VanL <van@scratch.space> writes:
> The delay was 42 seconds approximately the last
> two Gnus starts separated a day apart.  The
> mail provider is on the opposite side of the
> planet.

Could you please do this test:

1. Configure SMTP on local machine to relay using exim, postfix etc.
2. Configure Gnus to use local SMTP - (setq message-send-mail-function
'message-send-mail-with-sendmail)
3. Shoot a test mail (of course after the new configuration is read by
Gnus)

If sending email is still taking time then there is something wrong in
the Gnus configuration itself; not a mail-server issue.

Similarly, you may test with local IMAP using dovecot.

Regards,
-- 
Pankaj Jangid

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Pankaj Jangid <p4j@j4d.net> writes:

> Could you please do this test:
>
> 1. Configure SMTP on local machine to relay using exim, postfix etc.
> 2. Configure Gnus to use local SMTP - (setq message-send-mail-function
> 'message-send-mail-with-sendmail)
> 3. Shoot a test mail (of course after the new configuration is read by
> Gnus)
>
> If sending email is still taking time then there is something wrong in
> the Gnus configuration itself; not a mail-server issue.
>
> Similarly, you may test with local IMAP using dovecot.

My in/outbox is tiny.  There are about 10 items in all.  The delay
happens at Gnus start, when switching from inbox to gmane, sometimes on
sending to gmane.  I'll need to measure the delay if it happens on
sending email.  I don't really want to do a local SMTP, expecting a
rabbithole to madhat.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

> My in/outbox is tiny. There are about 10
> items in all. The delay happens at Gnus
> start, when switching from inbox to gmane,
> sometimes on sending to gmane.

OK, well, starting Gnus and sending to Gmane
does not imply any noticable delay for me.

Hm, what do you mean "when switching from inbox
to Gmane"?

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> OK, well, starting Gnus and sending to Gmane
> does not imply any noticable delay for me.

The start delay is ¾ minute.  My last posting to nntp had 3 minute delay.

> Hm, what do you mean "when switching from inbox
> to Gmane"?

Exiting the inbox, going to the group listing, then entering
gmane.emacs.help .

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

>> OK, well, starting Gnus and sending to Gmane
>> does not imply any noticable delay for me.
>
> The start delay is ¾ minute. My last posting
> to nntp had 3 minute delay.

OK, I have no idea, this (and the Gnus startup
delay of 45s) seem like, yeah, it shouldn't be.
I never experienced any of it using Gnus for
10 years soon, I think.

Maybe Comrade Ingebrigtsen and the gang are
reading this and can offer some
explanation/remedy just what is happening
during those delays.

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>>> OK, well, starting Gnus and sending to Gmane
>>> does not imply any noticable delay for me.
>>
>> The start delay is ¾ minute. My last posting
>> to nntp had 3 minute delay.
>
> OK, I have no idea, this (and the Gnus startup
> delay of 45s) seem like, yeah, it shouldn't be.

The first 20s is the time it takes to prompt for passphrase.

> Maybe Comrade Ingebrigtsen and the gang are
> reading this and can offer some
> explanation/remedy just what is happening
> during those delays.

Another type of long delay occurs after typing 'a' to answer/reply to an
email, Emacs is unresponsive for minutes, the sshd takes 40% load.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

> The first 20s is the time it takes to prompt
> for passphrase. [...]
>
> Another type of long delay occurs after
> typing 'a' to answer/reply to an email, Emacs
> is unresponsive for minutes, the sshd takes
> 40% load.

Did you try another client? Are there delays
there as well?

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> Did you try another client? Are there delays
> there as well?

The Apple Mail didn't delay.  Unlike Emacs, it has better parallelism?

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

>> Did you try another client? Are there delays
>> there as well?
>
> The Apple Mail didn't delay. Unlike Emacs, it
> has better parallelism?

Maybe, but I don't think that's
the explanation.

-- 
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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

>> The Apple Mail didn't delay. Unlike Emacs, it
>> has better parallelism?
>
> Maybe, but I don't think that's
> the explanation.

The on entry to group delay is gone after catching up on the gmane
groups with 0 to their columns.

Apple Mail's responsive async UI is probably hiding the necessary
round-trip delay due to speed of light.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

VanL wrote:

>> Maybe, but I don't think that's
>> the explanation.
>
> The on entry to group delay is gone after
> catching up on the gmane groups with 0 to
> their columns.

Good, now what delays remain?

The start Gnus delay, while not optimal,
perhaps isn't a practical issue if you keep
Emacs and Gnus on all the time?

-- 
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https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[VanL]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> VanL wrote:
>
>>> Maybe, but I don't think that's
>>> the explanation.
>>
>> The on entry to group delay is gone after
>> catching up on the gmane groups with 0 to
>> their columns.
>
> Good, now what delays remain?

The initial 45sec delay on start.  An existing session that does not
prompt for passphrase shows activity on the status line or echo area
after 15sec. 

> The start Gnus delay, while not optimal,
> perhaps isn't a practical issue if you keep
> Emacs and Gnus on all the time?

I keep Emacs running for as long as it can.  Normally, I quit and start
Gnus.

-- 
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  əə0@ 一 二 三 言 語 𝔖

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Ergus]

The thread is a bit long, so I didn't read it fully.

But in case nobody mentioned; there is mu4e which uses mu as a backed,
it has a descent documentation and is fast enough as it uses the
external mu program.

I have to say I am not using it anymore as I prefer (new)mutt. But so
far it is the best and most modern email client I found in emacs (I
tried many).

And the configuration is barely simple specially for multiple email
accounts.



On Sun, Dec 01, 2019 at 07:27:15PM +0100, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:
>VanL wrote:
>
>>> Maybe, but I don't think that's
>>> the explanation.
>>
>> The on entry to group delay is gone after
>> catching up on the gmane groups with 0 to
>> their columns.
>
>Good, now what delays remain?
>
>The start Gnus delay, while not optimal,
>perhaps isn't a practical issue if you keep
>Emacs and Gnus on all the time?
>
>-- 
>underground experts united
>http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
>https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

Hello Herbert^^^

> Wanderlust. Why is no one else suggesting it?

Very early ago, i used Wanderlust for a month. Then again i again yes
again i move to Gnus. Because large imap foler like as LKML traffice
is same both Wanderlust and Gnus in speed. Plus Wanderlust is not easy to
install. In these days, i am so happy with Gnus over all real life.

Sincerely, Byung-Hee from South Korea

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

> again i move to Gnus. Because large imap foler like as LKML traffice

Sorry for typo. s/traffice/traffic/g ;;;

Sincerely,

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[황병희]

"M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:

> Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
> want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> elsware?
>

Suddenly i did rise think up some email client:
===> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/mh-e.html

Gnus is the world best, then mh-e second best mailer!

Sincerely, Gnus and MH-E fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _救濟蒼生_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jean Louis]

* 황병희 <soyeomul@vladivostok.yw.doraji.xyz> [2020-11-15 07:06]:
> "M.R.P. zensky" <wintermute24x7@icloud.com> writes:
> 
> > Hello I wondering what the best mail client is for me to use. I do not
> > want to use gnus. I just want a really good mail client that can
> > handle pop and map. Can Rmail support POP and Imap? Should I look
> > elsware?
> >
> 
> Suddenly i did rise think up some email client:
> ===> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/mh-e.html
> 
> Gnus is the world best, then mh-e second best mailer!
> 
> Sincerely, Gnus and MH-E fan Byung-Hee

mh-e is powerful email client bult-in into Emacs. I would be using it
if I would have too few emails. I have 50000+ Maildir folders relating
to 50000+ conversations and many more email messages.

Maildir format is number one choice for me, and I wish Emacs could be
able to handle that, but it does not.
https://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html

So the email client of choice for me is mutt running within M-x ansi-term
or M-x term or M-x vterm.

So far only vterm is handling terminal issues correctly.

References: https://www.mutt.org and
https://gitlab.com/muttmua/mutt/wikis/home

Vterm: https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm

My strategy for handling emails is that each email address has its
Maildir folder. That means by one key press in Mutt (by configuration)
I can access all previous conversations related to that email
address. It is blazing fast compared to anything I have tested in
Emacs and I have tested them all.

Mutt supports emacsclient, so one can write in mutt within Emacs
terminal and use Emacs to write emails, it means that new frame is not
opening on X unless -c option is used for emacsclient

I really tried over last 20 years to use Emacs as email client and it
never satisfied my demand for speed and quick handling of emails as
Mutt does.

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Teemu Likonen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2261 bytes --]

* 2020-11-15 10:21:18+03, Jean Louis wrote:

> I have 50000+ Maildir folders relating to 50000+ conversations and
> many more email messages.

Yes, some of us like storing all the mail we have received. I'll
"advertise" my preferred system.

    $ notmuch count
    458078

All those mails are currently in 14 Maildir directories, by the year of
the mail message, so that a single file system directory don't grow too
much.

(At some point I had _all_ mail files in a single Maildir directory
which is perfectly fine for Notmuch. However, some file system tools
might start to slow down when one directory has hundreds of thousands of
files. It's probably better to split mail file somehow. Thus, I nowadays
split mail files to differect directories by year. Anyway, for Notmuch
it doesn't mean anything.)

> Maildir format is number one choice for me, and I wish Emacs could be
> able to handle that, but it does not.

Or Emacs doesn't need to handle mail files at all: Notmuch Emacs
interface works by calling Notmuch which does the work through its
database. So when I open a virtual folder "emacs.help" in the user
interface it triggers preconfigured search with terms like:

    ( to:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org OR List:help-gnu-emacs ) AND date:90days..

Search term "List" is for indexed List-Id headers in my system.

> My strategy for handling emails is that each email address has its
> Maildir folder. That means by one key press in Mutt (by configuration)
> I can access all previous conversations related to that email address.
> It is blazing fast compared to anything I have tested in Emacs and I
> have tested them all.

Another approach for fast mail handling is to index all mail like
Notmuch. Searching doesn't read actual mail files; it uses the database
indexes. Only when user wants to display a mail the actual file is
opened in the file system. That is always fast and it doesn't matter
where the mail is located in the file system.

    $ time notmuch search from:"Jean Louis" AND date:2018..2019 >/dev/null

    real    0m0,037s
    user    0m0,033s
    sys     0m0,004s


-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 4E1055DC84E9DFF613D78557719D69D324539450

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jean Louis]

* Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> [2020-11-15 17:45]:
> * 2020-11-15 10:21:18+03, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > I have 50000+ Maildir folders relating to 50000+ conversations and
> > many more email messages.
> 
> Yes, some of us like storing all the mail we have received. I'll
> "advertise" my preferred system.
> 
>     $ notmuch count
>     458078

admin-> mu msgs-count
460886

> All those mails are currently in 14 Maildir directories, by the year of
> the mail message, so that a single file system directory don't grow too
> much.

There are ways to open up Mutt and show specific messages pertaining
to specific email address. I just prefer having Maildir folder for
each. Then I can even easily tar gzip folder and send it back to my
conversant.

> (At some point I had _all_ mail files in a single Maildir directory
> which is perfectly fine for Notmuch. However, some file system tools
> might start to slow down when one directory has hundreds of thousands of
> files. It's probably better to split mail file somehow. Thus, I nowadays
> split mail files to differect directories by year. Anyway, for Notmuch
> it doesn't mean anything.)

My storage is as follows:

~/Maildir/tlikonen@iki.fi with cur/new/tmp inside
~/Maildir/somebody@example.com

and so on

Mutt setting is:

set save_name=yes
set save_address=yes
set force_name=yes

But I cannot be sure now, some of those may not be needed.

When I finish with email, I save it, it moves from IMAP or Maildir
folder to subfolder. Finished.

When I need to see all emails from specific contact, let us say I am reading IMAP or main maildir, I have settings to click ESC v to see all previous emails. It becomes simple as then I am just looking with new mutt instance into ~/Maildir/tlikonen@iki.fi

> > Maildir format is number one choice for me, and I wish Emacs could be
> > able to handle that, but it does not.
> 
> Or Emacs doesn't need to handle mail files at all: Notmuch Emacs
> interface works by calling Notmuch which does the work through its
> database. So when I open a virtual folder "emacs.help" in the user
> interface it triggers preconfigured search with terms like:
> 
>     ( to:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org OR List:help-gnu-emacs ) AND date:90days..

In general it is good to have search and I use mu. notmouch I tried
and it did not work. Last attempt before few days. It was for
hours. Maybe on some other computer.

mu4e does not work best for me. It can search yes, show me
results. But it cannot show me Maildir list as there are too many.

I would try notmuch, but it could never index it. Sometimes waiting
even one day. I never had patience.

It can also be that many attachments are disturbing searches.

In general main interest for me is to see previous conversation from
and to specific user to verify or review it. That minimizes searches
about 99% of time.

> Another approach for fast mail handling is to index all mail like
> Notmuch. Searching doesn't read actual mail files; it uses the database
> indexes. Only when user wants to display a mail the actual file is
> opened in the file system. That is always fast and it doesn't matter
> where the mail is located in the file system.
> 
>     $ time notmuch search from:"Jean Louis" AND date:2018..2019 >/dev/null
> 
>     real    0m0,037s
>     user    0m0,033s
>     sys     0m0,004s

I have it indexed with mu4e. Notmuch not performing well (could never
make it to work).

M-x shell:

$ time mu find tlikonen@iki.fi
Sun 11 Oct 2020 01:32:36 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 09:25:51 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 09:45:56 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:36:22 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:42:42 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Mon 26 Oct 2020 10:36:25 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Mon 26 Oct 2020 10:58:40 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sat 31 Oct 2020 03:35:10 PM EAT Jean Louis <louis@rcdsociety.com> Re: A survey for Emacs users
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:37:51 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: A survey for Emacs users

real	0m0.017s
user	0m0.000s
sys	0m0.010s

$ time mu find tlikonen@iki.fi date:2018..2020
Sun 11 Oct 2020 01:32:36 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 09:25:51 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 09:45:56 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:36:22 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sun 11 Oct 2020 11:42:42 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Mon 26 Oct 2020 10:36:25 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Mon 26 Oct 2020 10:58:40 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey
Sat 31 Oct 2020 03:35:10 PM EAT Jean Louis <louis@rcdsociety.com> Re: A survey for Emacs users
Sat 31 Oct 2020 10:37:51 PM EAT Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> Re: A survey for Emacs users

real	0m0.018s
user	0m0.010s
sys	0m0.000s

This package you may find useful:

http://github.com/nicferrier/emacs-maildir

I wish it could be better. That package could well integrate stored
emails with Emacs without using search and searches as mu and notmuch
with Emacs in maybe more simpler manner.

Jean

Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Amin Bandali]

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Jean Louis writes:

[...]
>
> Maildir format is number one choice for me, and I wish Emacs could be
> able to handle that, but it does not.
> https://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
>
[...]

That is not quite true, though.  Emacs can handle Maildir via nnmaildir,
Gnus's Maildir backend; albeit with some quirks, such as slower startup
times for Gnus for large number of messages.  Alternatively, one can use
nnimap, Gnus's IMAP backend, and point it to a local dovecot instance in
front of a local maildir.  Advantages of doing so include the efficiency
of dovecot in handling large amounts of mail, and trivially easy email
synchronization with other machines through IMAP, using isync's mbsync.

Have you tried using Gnus's nnimap?  I don't have nearly as many maildir
folders, but I do have multiple hundred folders, and a total of several
hundred thousand messages, and my dovecot+nnimap setup has been handling
it very well thus far.

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Re: Best Emacs Mail client.

[Jean Louis]

* Amin Bandali <bandali@gnu.org> [2020-11-15 18:24]:
> Jean Louis writes:
> 
> [...]
> >
> > Maildir format is number one choice for me, and I wish Emacs could be
> > able to handle that, but it does not.
> > https://cr.yp.to/proto/maildir.html
> >
> [...]
> 
> That is not quite true, though.  Emacs can handle Maildir via nnmaildir,
> Gnus's Maildir backend; albeit with some quirks, such as slower startup
> times for Gnus for large number of messages.

It is not handling really maildirs but it is making something out of
maildirs, producing new files, etc. And it is never ending for
me. I have tried it. There are many maildir folders here on my side.

In general good maildir handling program does not need to do anything
with maildirs until they are accessed. Gnus tries to do what it does
(don't know) and I never get the list of maildirs. So it is not
functional for users that go over certain limits.

> Alternatively, one can use nnimap, Gnus's IMAP backend, and point it
> to a local dovecot instance in front of a local maildir.

Mails on my side are spread and written from various computers and
installing more specific software just to read file system is not
logical.

To handle maildirs for me means to be able to quickly access specific
message by its Message ID or to simply open maildir folder and list
messages and do the usual stuff. Similar how rmail behaves. I am fine
with Emacs sending of emails. Nic Ferrier's package for Maildir is
something closest to what I find efficient and I do use it when I wish
to display all emails from specific user as such emails are in
specific directory.

> Advantages of doing so include the efficiency of dovecot in handling
> large amounts of mail, and trivially easy email synchronization with
> other machines through IMAP, using isync's mbsync.

Normally to read emails in Maildir I use Mutt.

Now for Emacs to read emails in Maildir efficiently I would need to
either fight with nnmaildir in Gnus or use IMAP. It increases number
of settings especially when using emails from multiple machines.

By the way, movemail from GNU Mailutils works well and is well tweaked
to move mails from anywhere to anywhere.

> Have you tried using Gnus's nnimap?  I don't have nearly as many maildir
> folders, but I do have multiple hundred folders, and a total of several
> hundred thousand messages, and my dovecot+nnimap setup has been handling
> it very well thus far.

I understand that and is good to get reminded. As I am using
HyperScope for Emacs, I have to keep it simple for easier referencing
and opening. There are too many command lines that depend on simple
reading from file system. It is easier to keep it simpler without
intermediary IMAP.

IMAP supports some searches but I never used it. Mutt supports load of
searches.

mu4e does not support really direct Maildir access, it only supports
database use. For notmuch I do not know.

So best chance is with that maildir.el package

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