additional functionality for html-helper-mode

additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

Another current conversation about emacs & elisp programming got me 
thinking again....

There is some mode in emacs which can selectively and flexibly 
"collapse" and "expand" selected blocks of text; that is, make it/them 
visible to the user or not display them.  It was a long time ago, but I 
believe that was org-mode.

Would it be possible to integrate that functionality into 
html-helper-mode so that chapters could be selectively collapsed or 
expanded?  For example, I might have:

<h1>Chapter One</h1>

<p>This is a paragraph.  There would be many of these.

  </p>

<h1>Chapter Two</h1>

<p>Paragraph in Chapter II. blah blah blah

  </p>

<h1>Chapter Three</h1>

<p>More paragraphs for this chapter also.

  </p>

Then I'd want to not see the contents of chapter 2 only, like this:

<h1>Chapter One</h1>

<h1>Chapter Two</h1>

<p>Paragraph in Chapter II. blah blah blah

  </p>

<h1>Chapter Three</h1>

Of course all the text for all chapters would still be there in the 
file, just not visible in emacs.  I could still pull the file into a 
browser and see the entire thing.

I'm fairly certain this would be possible.  The question is, I guess, 
what would be the easiest way to do it?

Much thanks.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

Kem

I think you have a hideshow minor mode that does that:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Hideshow.html

I think it's generally called "code folding".

Jean-Christophe 

> On May 23, 2017, at 7:34, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
> 
> Another current conversation about emacs & elisp programming got me thinking again....
> 
> There is some mode in emacs which can selectively and flexibly "collapse" and "expand" selected blocks of text; that is, make it/them visible to the user or not display them.  It was a long time ago, but I believe that was org-mode.
> 
> Would it be possible to integrate that functionality into html-helper-mode so that chapters could be selectively collapsed or expanded?

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Emanuel Berg]

ken wrote:

> There is some mode in emacs which can
> selectively and flexibly "collapse" and
> "expand" selected blocks of text; that is,
> make it/them visible to the user or not
> display them. It was a long time ago, but
> I believe that was org-mode.
>
> Would it be possible to integrate that
> functionality into html-helper-mode so that
> chapters could be selectively collapsed or
> expanded? For example, I might have:

I use the built-in `html-mode' for my primitive
or 90s-looking pages and as for editing I never
had any problems or felt the need to do code
fold, but some people who do HTML insist
web-mode.el is much better and there code
folding is available probably exactly as you
describe it:

    http://web-mode.org

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

On 05/22/2017 06:53 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> Kem
>
> I think you have a hideshow minor mode that does that:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Hideshow.html
>
> I think it's generally called "code folding".
>
> Jean-Christophe
>
>> On May 23, 2017, at 7:34, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
>>
>> Another current conversation about emacs & elisp programming got me thinking again....
>>
>> There is some mode in emacs which can selectively and flexibly "collapse" and "expand" selected blocks of text; that is, make it/them visible to the user or not display them.  It was a long time ago, but I believe that was org-mode.
>>
>> Would it be possible to integrate that functionality into html-helper-mode so that chapters could be selectively collapsed or expanded?


Thanks for the suggestion.

However, it doesn't seem to understand html, i.e., only affects CSS 
definitions enclosed within curly braces, { and }.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

On 05/22/2017 08:29 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> ken wrote:
>
>> There is some mode in emacs which can
>> selectively and flexibly "collapse" and
>> "expand" selected blocks of text; that is,
>> make it/them visible to the user or not
>> display them. It was a long time ago, but
>> I believe that was org-mode.
>>
>> Would it be possible to integrate that
>> functionality into html-helper-mode so that
>> chapters could be selectively collapsed or
>> expanded? For example, I might have:
> I use the built-in `html-mode' for my primitive
> or 90s-looking pages and as for editing I never
> had any problems or felt the need to do code
> fold, but some people who do HTML insist
> web-mode.el is much better and there code
> folding is available probably exactly as you
> describe it:
>
>      http://web-mode.org
>
Thanks for the suggestion, but I didn't want to have to learn a new 
editor.  I tried html-mode years ago and didn't care for it. Moreover,, 
I've been using html-helper-mode for decades and am not only quite 
comfortable with it and don't want to become a newbie again, but I've 
also made a lot of very helpful customizations and have written some 
bits of fresh code which is dependent upon html-helper-mode.  So maybe 
you understand that I'm just interested in additional functionality for 
html-helper-mode.

Though it's off-topic, I would add that I use html-helper-mode to edit 
quite sophisticated web pages which aren't '90s-looking at all, but 
which incorporate web 2.0 features and CSS and columns, graphics, and 
much more.  Of course I wouldn't write an entire CMS with 
html-helper-mode, but then I wouldn't attempt it in any emacs mode; it 
would be much more sensible to use Joomla, Wordpress or Drupal... and 
probably, if at all feasible, one of the emacs modes designed 
specifically to interface with  those.  But this is all a separate 
conversation.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 24, 2017, at 2:43, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
> 
> On 05/22/2017 06:53 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> Kem
>> 
>> I think you have a hideshow minor mode that does that:
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Hideshow.html
>> 
>> I think it's generally called "code folding".
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> However, it doesn't seem to understand html, i.e., only affects CSS definitions enclosed within curly braces, { and }.

Ok, a quick search with "html, folding, emacs) brought these:

https://github.com/ataka/html-fold
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FoldingMode
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29463639/how-to-fold-html-tag-in-emacs

Jean-Christophe 

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Yuri Khan]

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary
<jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> wrote:

>> However, it doesn't seem to understand html, i.e., only affects CSS definitions enclosed within curly braces, { and }.
>
> Ok, a quick search with "html, folding, emacs) brought these:

Keep in mind that with regard to HTML there are two possible
interpretations of folding.

* One is folding the contents between two paired tags: <p>{{…}}</p>.
* Another is folding the contents after a heading up to (but not
including) the next heading of that or higher level on the same level
of element nesting: <h2>Foo</h2>{{…}}<h1>Bar</h1>.

The first is what a typical general-purpose folding library is going
to implement. The second can arguably be called “understanding HTML”,
and is what Ken is asking for.

(And no, I don’t have any experience with HTML folding in Emacs.)

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

On 05/23/2017 06:13 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>> On May 24, 2017, at 2:43, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 05/22/2017 06:53 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>>> Kem
>>>
>>> I think you have a hideshow minor mode that does that:
>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Hideshow.html
>>>
>>> I think it's generally called "code folding".
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion.
>>
>> However, it doesn't seem to understand html, i.e., only affects CSS definitions enclosed within curly braces, { and }.
> Ok, a quick search with "html, folding, emacs) brought these:
>
> https://github.com/ataka/html-fold
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FoldingMode
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29463639/how-to-fold-html-tag-in-emacs
>
> Jean-Christophe
>
>
Thanks, Jean-Christophe.  I was digging into the code for hideshow, to 
see if it were doctorable to handle html and didn't think to search out 
a better solution.  The first, html-fold, might be a better option.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

On 05/24/2017 12:46 AM, Yuri Khan wrote:
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary
> <jean.christophe.helary@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> However, it doesn't seem to understand html, i.e., only affects CSS definitions enclosed within curly braces, { and }.
>> Ok, a quick search with "html, folding, emacs) brought these:
> Keep in mind that with regard to HTML there are two possible
> interpretations of folding.
>
> * One is folding the contents between two paired tags: <p>{{…}}</p>.
> * Another is folding the contents after a heading up to (but not
> including) the next heading of that or higher level on the same level
> of element nesting: <h2>Foo</h2>{{…}}<h1>Bar</h1>.
>
> The first is what a typical general-purpose folding library is going
> to implement. The second can arguably be called “understanding HTML”,
> and is what Ken is asking for.
>
> (And no, I don’t have any experience with HTML folding in Emacs.)
>
Good distinction.  Completely correct.  And hideshow couldn't do either.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Emanuel Berg]

ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:

>>> Would it be possible to integrate that
>>> functionality into html-helper-mode so that
>>> chapters could be selectively collapsed or
>>> expanded? For example, I might have: I use the
>>> built-in `html-mode' for my primitive or
>>> 90s-looking pages and as for editing I never had
>>> any problems or felt the need to do code fold, but
>>> some people who do HTML insist web-mode.el is much
>>> better and there code folding is available
>>> probably exactly as you describe it:
>>> http://web-mode.org
>>
> Thanks for the suggestion, but I didn't want to have to
> learn a new editor.

A new editor? Sweet heaven, no! Here is what it says
on the web site:

    web-mode.el is an autonomous emacs major-mode for
    editing web templates. HTML documents can embed
    parts (CSS/JavaScript) and blocks (client/server
    side).

Does "autonomous" mean it is implemented as
a standalone editor? What kind of "Emacs mode" is
that?!

> Though it's off-topic, I would add that I use
> html-helper-mode to edit quite sophisticated web
> pages which aren't '90s-looking at all, but which
> incorporate web 2.0 features and CSS

Well, you are allowed to use CSS...

> and columns, graphics, and much more. Of course
> I wouldn't write an entire CMS with
> html-helper-mode, but then I wouldn't attempt it in
> any emacs mode; it would be much more sensible to
> use Joomla, Wordpress or Drupal...

...but not that :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[ken]

On 05/24/2017 03:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
>
>>>> Would it be possible to integrate that
>>>> functionality into html-helper-mode so that
>>>> chapters could be selectively collapsed or
>>>> expanded? For example, I might have: I use the
>>>> built-in `html-mode' for my primitive or
>>>> 90s-looking pages and as for editing I never had
>>>> any problems or felt the need to do code fold, but
>>>> some people who do HTML insist web-mode.el is much
>>>> better and there code folding is available
>>>> probably exactly as you describe it:
>>>> http://web-mode.org
>> Thanks for the suggestion, but I didn't want to have to
>> learn a new editor.
> A new editor? Sweet heaven, no! Here is what it says
> on the web site:
>
>      web-mode.el is an autonomous emacs major-mode for
>      editing web templates. HTML documents can embed
>      parts (CSS/JavaScript) and blocks (client/server
>      side).
>
> Does "autonomous" mean it is implemented as
> a standalone editor? What kind of "Emacs mode" is
> that?!

In a technical world disregarding the humans using software, I think you 
would be correct.  When I say it would be like a new editor, I mean that 
the keybindings for doing all the html coding in web-mode would likely 
be completely different from those in html-helper-mode... they 
definitely were in html-mode.  Imagine how many different html markups 
there are... idk, perhaps hundreds... I don't want to have to learn all 
new keybindings for another, different mode.  I've been using 
html-helper-mode for a long time, probably decades.  I'm fluent with its 
keybindings.  And I've created new functions within html-helper-mode and 
modified others which have yet other related keybindings.  Those have 
become fluent also.  That kind of fluency is part and parcel of the 
human factor, a view and an experience which purely technical 
considerations seem to be oblivious to.  To me, confronting hundreds of 
new keybindings (for things I already know how to do with my current 
setup) is tantamount to learning a new editor.  From your technical 
vantage point, however, I will readily admit you are correct.


>
>> Though it's off-topic, I would add that I use
>> html-helper-mode to edit quite sophisticated web
>> pages which aren't '90s-looking at all, but which
>> incorporate web 2.0 features and CSS
> Well, you are allowed to use CSS...
>
>> and columns, graphics, and much more. Of course
>> I wouldn't write an entire CMS with
>> html-helper-mode, but then I wouldn't attempt it in
>> any emacs mode; it would be much more sensible to
>> use Joomla, Wordpress or Drupal...
> ...but not that :)
>
Not long ago I applied for a passport and it specifically allows me to 
use Wordpress and Drupal.  :)

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[John Ankarström]

Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

> Keep in mind that with regard to HTML there are two possible
> interpretations of folding.
> [...]
> * Another is folding the contents after a heading up to (but not
> including) the next heading of that or higher level on the same level
> of element nesting: <h2>Foo</h2>{{…}}<h1>Bar</h1>.

I'm not sure that's an optimal way to interpret or write HTML. Modern
tags like <section> make it easier and more reliable to divide documents
into sections, for both humans and programs. The second approach you
describe seems a little prone to breaking, as it's hard to know the
writer's original intent without explicit <section>'s.

Though, there is a case where a similar approach is necessary: for
example, to fold paragraphs without a closing </p> tag (which is valid
HTML), or list items without </li>, etc. Though it would surprise me if
any HTML folding packages for Emacs supported it ... :-)

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 4:58 AM, ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:

> When I say it would be like a new editor, I mean that the
> keybindings for doing all the html coding in web-mode would likely be
> completely different from those in html-helper-mode... they definitely were
> in html-mode.  Imagine how many different html markups there are... idk,
> perhaps hundreds... I don't want to have to learn all new keybindings for
> another, different mode.

You don’t need to relearn keybindings. You can instead port your
keybindings to a new underlying mode.

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

>> When I say it would be like a new editor,
>> I mean that the keybindings for doing all
>> the html coding in web-mode would likely be
>> completely different from those in
>> html-helper-mode... they definitely were in
>> html-mode. Imagine how many different html
>> markups there are... idk, perhaps
>> hundreds... I don't want to have to learn
>> all new keybindings for another,
>> different mode.
>
> You don’t need to relearn keybindings.
> You can instead port your keybindings to
> a new underlying mode.

From Ken's posts it seems he doesn't write HTML
as much as use shortcuts to insert all the
tags. Then I suppose it would require some work
to export all of that to another mode where
likely the insert functions also have different
names and so on.

It would also be a constant discussion - when
to re-learn, when to tweak the new stuff to
your old ways.

The "insert way" of producing code never
appealed to me, as I love typing (the physical
aspect of it), but reading Ken's post I suspect
he is the opposite as otherwise I don't
understand where all hundreds of HTML-specific
shortcuts would come from. (?)

From an efficiency standpoint, typing is good
as it is more versatile and is readily
transferable between modes. It is more
flexible. Relying heavily on mode-specific
things is the opposite, but when taken to
a certain degree of perfection, for that
particular mode and task I suppose it could be
insanely fast and efficient.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Emanuel Berg <moasen@zoho.com> wrote:

> It would also be a constant discussion - when
> to re-learn, when to tweak the new stuff to
> your old ways.

When your old ways are so hard ingrained in your brain and fingers,
you port. That’s what happened for me with F2 to save and Ctrl+Y to
delete a line; I have carried them from wordstar-like editors on DOS
through Visual Studio on Windows to Emacs on GNU/Linux.

> From an efficiency standpoint, typing is good
> as it is more versatile and is readily
> transferable between modes. It is more
> flexible. Relying heavily on mode-specific
> things is the opposite, but when taken to
> a certain degree of perfection, for that
> particular mode and task I suppose it could be
> insanely fast and efficient.

In the previous life, in a different editor, I had a very efficient
setup based halfway on keys, halfway on typing. I would hold down Alt
and type a unique prefix of an HTML tag, and it would wrap the
selection in a matched pair. Never got to port it to Emacs though;
these days I prefer generating HTML from Markdown. Or, when I need the
full power of HTML, I use Yasnippet (which also has a way to wrap
around the selection).

Re: additional functionality for html-helper-mode

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

> In the previous life, in a different editor,
> I had a very efficient setup based halfway on
> keys, halfway on typing. I would hold down
> Alt and type a unique prefix of an HTML tag,
> and it would wrap the selection in a matched
> pair. Never got to port it to Emacs though;
> these days I prefer generating HTML from
> Markdown. Or, when I need the full power of
> HTML, I use Yasnippet (which also has a way
> to wrap around the selection).

I used to think Emacs and Unix is the superior
way do things with a computer. I even felt
sorry for the poor bastards doing eclipsed Java
on Windows. But because I never thought me to
be a superior programmer to them, just a person
with much better taste in technology,
I actually thought it was a mystery why they
never realized what awesome stuff there is and
moved on!

Now I don't think in terms of what is superior
but rather in terms of computer personalities.
Styles make fights! And I have to admit that
I don't know any other personalities than the
Emacs/Unix one. So I can't say which is better
than the other.

What I've seen, for my style, I've not seen
anything remotely as good tho. For other
people's style, I now know that what I see,
some moron clicking on icons, scrolling tons of
tiny letters and skimming thru menus and
autocompletion lists, and this looks completely
bizarre, but is it actually a computer
personality behind all this jungle that makes
sense, possibly as much as mine?

I guess I'll never know for sure :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573