From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Guile in Emacs Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:39:12 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4B8147A9.7030504@gmail.com> <873a0cyv3r.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87aauiho3y.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <1271028837.6164.55.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <1271102739.6067.38.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <8039yz34ka.fsf@tiny.isode.net> <1271173887.6067.53.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <87FA5F05CB9C41409B9E72BD06D7C8CF@us.oracle.com> <87fx2xp839.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <877ho9p3pv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87k4s9nkzf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1271328071 20662 80.91.229.12 (15 Apr 2010 10:41:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:41:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 15 12:41:08 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O2MVQ-000297-6x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:41:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43806 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O2MVP-0007cs-AD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:41:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1O2MTg-0006jF-O6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:39:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=55970 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O2MTf-0006iV-6b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:39:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O2MTd-0006KO-3F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:39:19 -0400 Original-Received: from ebb06.tieto.com ([131.207.168.38]:46191) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O2MTc-0006Jy-TC; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:39:17 -0400 X-AuditID: 83cfa826-b7c95ae000001320-6e-4bc6ecd3f0d4 Original-Received: from FIHGA-EXHUB01.eu.tieto.com ( [131.207.136.34]) by ebb06.tieto.com (SMTP Mailer) with SMTP id 5E.A7.04896.3DCE6CB4; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:39:15 +0300 (EEST) Original-Received: from uw000509 (10.48.99.3) by inbound.tieto.com (131.207.136.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.176.0; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:39:14 +0300 In-Reply-To: <87k4s9nkzf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> (David Kastrup's message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:06:12 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.1.95 (gnu/linux) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAARO1VaY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:123700 Archived-At: >>>>> "David" == David Kastrup writes: David> Because the language specific manual would have no constructs and David> no examples using any editor-specific data structures or any David> editor-specific tasks. Ah, now I begin to see more clearly what you are talking about (I think). However, I am not really sure I understand why this is a problem. In the editing library part of the manual, one could include the necessary examples of how to express one self in the language related to that feature. I do not see why, say, the description of `defun' or `loop' necessarily need to use editing related examples. The description of the core language will, IMHO, only really make sense to programmers anyway. Non-programmers will (even today) find some relevant code snippet, search for the relevant editing function and apply some patterne matching between the examples there and the code snippet. I doubt they will be anymore compelled to learn the language just because examples have an editing focus. I am also not entirely sure just how closely coupled the current manuals are to the editing context. If one flips through the first dozen pages of the emacs lisp introduction, there is nothing related to editing. Flipping through the control structures chapter in the emacs lisp reference manual shows a similar pattern. Most of those examples uses `print'/`princ' rather than `insert'. This is obviously not a thorough review of all of the manuals, but I am unconvinced that the current manual could not be separated into a language part and an editing library part with good effects if need be. We will anyway have the same problem with Guile, I think. One of the advantages of Guile is precisely that it is an independent piece of software on which a future emacs will be based, among other applications which also uses Guile. I would expect Guile to have, and to continue to have, its own manual. Whether this will include (in an integrated way) contents equivalent to the relevant RxRS standards or just point to them and focus on documenting the differences/extensions (as some CL implementation do with the hyperspec) I do not know, but surely it will be prudent for the Guile manual to be selfcontained and not littered with examples that only makes sense in an emacs context. Even though scheme is smaller than CL, and it could very well be that even Guile is significantly smaller than some CL implementations, I hope that the emacs maintainers would not opt to *duplicate* the Guile documentation simply for the sake of being able to provide a version with a more editing focus. ------------------------+----------------------------------------------------- Christian Lynbech | christian #\@ defun #\. dk ------------------------+----------------------------------------------------- Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual. - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)