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From: Andrea Corallo <acorallo@gnu.org>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:39:59 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <yp1v7wgln80.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Zz38jvRRsSi_6C7U@MAC.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2024 15:13:18 +0000")

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> Hello, Emacs.
>
> I'm resigning my position as Emacs contributor.
>
> The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's
> symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes
> without informing me, much less consulting me.  That makes my position as
> CC Mode maintainer here untenable.
>
> Eli Zaretskii and I have had extensive discussions, both in public and in
> private email, over the last week or so, but we have been unable to reach
> any satisfactory compromise solution.
>
> Names are important.  They have power.  To take somebody's/somthing's
> name and misuse it is an exercise of aggression.  Try using "Emacs" or
> even "free software" to mean something different, and see just how
> quickly you would hear back from Richard Stallman.  This misuse of CC
> Mode's "trademarks", the symbols `c-mode', `c++-mode', and perhaps
> `c-or-c++-mode', is just such an act of aggression.
>
> These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current
> preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc.  In
> certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and
> auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify
> C Mode or C++ Mode.  Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in
> auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of
> auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode.
>
> The change took place in the commit for bug#69191 "New var
> `major-mode-remap-defaults`, for packages".  It sounds so innocent, but
> is an extremely bad solution for whatever problem (unspecified in the
> commit message) it was intended to solve.  A major mode using it changes
> the interfaces of other libraries in an uncontrolled way.  This is not
> good software engineering.
>
> This bug was raised and committed by Stefan Monnier.  Despite the fact
> that the bug fix directly impinged upon CC Mode, and there was even a
> change to cc-mode.el in the patch, he failed even to inform me.  The only
> two modes substantially affected by this change were ruby-mode and CC
> Mode, and it is clear that Dmitry Gutov, maintainer of ruby-mode, was
> aware of the change.  Had I known of this proposal, I would certainly
> have objected to it.  Stefan is intelligent enough to have realised this,
> and maybe his avoidance of open discussion was motivated by this.
>
> Bug#69191 was a big change.  In Emacs, we have a convention whereby big
> changes are discussed openly on emacs-devel and a consensus reached
> before the change is made.  Stefan Monnier has regularly violated this
> convention, possibly believing that his ideas for Emacs are so good as to
> be beyond question.  Any attempt to question his ideas is likely to be
> met by evasive non-answers, if any response at all is forthcoming.  I
> could give several paragraphs worth of justification for these
> assertions, but I think everybody here knows I am right.
>
> In Emacs there is also a convention of treating eachother with respect on
> the mailing lists.  Sadly this convention is superficial, and seems only
> to mean things like not using swear words.  The truly contemptuous
> communication style, this evasive non-answering, seems to be regarded as
> acceptable.  I suggest that this change.
>
> Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus
> is at the heart of why I am resigning.  These changes have caused Emacs a
> lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors,
> including me, extra work and difficulty.  Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde
> character.  On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always
> ready to help others with technical questions.  On the other hand, as
> mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike
> Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing
> is.
>
> I strongly recommend that Stefan somehow be reigned in and required to
> observe Emacs's conventions about open discussion and courteous
> communication.  As I mentioned, his violations of these are at the core
> of why I feel unable to continue contributing to Emacs.
>
> I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel.  I intend to carry on
> maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC
> Mode issues which arise in Emacs.  Please post these to
> bug-cc-mode@gnu.org.
>
> It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers
> remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project
> all success in the future.
>
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Hi Alan,

I don't have much to add as I share all Eli's and Stefan's opinions
here.

I as well don't agree with your critic of S.M. actions, but more
importantly, please assume always good faith from other Emacs developers
(as suggested here [1]).  Our goal here of just making a better Emacs,
this is shared by every one, and would be a pity to loose your
contribution.

Please reconsider your position, sometimes stress and other factors can
tweak our conclusion momentary, but let's not forget our goals.

Thanks

  Andrea

[1] <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html>



  parent reply	other threads:[~2024-11-21 13:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 122+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-11-20 15:13 My resignation from Emacs development Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-20 15:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-20 16:23 ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21  6:22   ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-21 10:05     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21 11:23       ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-21 11:40         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 10:29   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-21 12:26     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-20 16:42 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-20 17:04 ` tomas
2024-11-20 21:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-11-21  2:28 ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-21 12:34   ` Tree-sitter maturity (was: My resignation from Emacs development) Peter Oliver
2024-11-23 13:41     ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-24  2:10     ` Tree-sitter maturity Björn Bidar
     [not found]     ` <67428b3d.c80a0220.2f3036.adbdSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-17 22:11       ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-18 13:34         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-19  1:40           ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-19  8:17             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-20  9:13             ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]             ` <6765355b.c80a0220.1a6b24.3117SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-20  9:29               ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-19 12:23           ` Peter Oliver
2024-12-19 12:42             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-19 13:15             ` Vincenzo Pupillo
2024-12-20  8:59           ` Björn Bidar
2024-11-21 13:01   ` My resignation from Emacs development Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-21 13:48     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 14:29       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-22  0:01         ` Po Lu
2024-11-22  7:03           ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22  8:14             ` Robert Pluim
2024-11-22  8:32               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 23:59               ` Po Lu
2024-11-23  6:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 16:29       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22  5:35     ` Adam Porter
2024-11-22  7:24       ` Madhu
2024-11-22  8:11         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22  9:26           ` Madhu
2024-11-22 12:07             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 12:40           ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 13:06           ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 13:39             ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 14:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-25  4:28             ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-26 17:37               ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-13  4:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-15 15:27                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-15 15:48                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-15 20:43                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-19  4:22                     ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-19  8:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 22:18           ` Andrea Corallo
2024-11-22 10:57       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 23:19         ` Adam Porter
2024-11-26 19:01       ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-26 19:51         ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-27  2:18           ` Adam Porter
2024-11-27  9:36             ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-27  9:59             ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-30  3:52             ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-30  7:53               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 16:22                 ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was: My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-30 16:56                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 21:06                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-01  6:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-03  7:26                 ` My resignation from Emacs development Richard Stallman
2024-12-03 13:33                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 16:21               ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-30 17:05                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 21:09                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-01  6:12                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-01 19:23                       ` Drew Adams
2024-12-03  7:25                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-03 13:32                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-06  4:48                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-02  4:09                 ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-02 13:04                   ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-02 15:32                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-05  5:08                     ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-05  6:33                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-02 15:29                   ` [External] : Re: Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-27  2:06         ` My resignation from Emacs development Adam Porter
2024-11-27  9:17           ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-22 15:36     ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 17:48       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-23 23:43     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2024-11-23  6:10   ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-23  7:48     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 11:06       ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-23 11:54         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 12:48           ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-23 23:59       ` Adam Porter
2024-12-01  3:50         ` Sean Whitton
2024-12-01  6:19           ` tomas
2024-11-24 18:12     ` Suhail Singh
2024-11-26  4:56       ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-26  7:38         ` Suhail Singh
2024-11-21  5:59 ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-22 11:36   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 11:52     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 10:36       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-23 11:31         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 13:39 ` Andrea Corallo [this message]
2024-11-21 19:01   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-21 19:19     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21 19:47     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 19:40 ` Jim Porter
2024-11-24  4:35   ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-21 23:57 ` Po Lu
2024-11-22 17:26 ` On committing significant and/or controversial changes (was: My resignation from Emacs development) Ihor Radchenko
2024-11-22 17:47   ` Ship Mints
2024-11-22 19:04     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-24  2:35       ` On committing significant and/or controversial changes Björn Bidar
2024-11-24  4:41         ` Adam Porter
2024-11-30  2:16           ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]       ` <87ttbx73zu.fsf@>
2024-11-24  8:26         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 19:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23  6:10 ` My resignation from Emacs development Richard Stallman
2024-11-23  8:50   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23  6:10 ` Richard Stallman

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