From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrea Corallo Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs ffi Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:23:03 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87a5hi0yts.fsf@valhala.localdomain> <86y152ge0b.fsf@gnu.org> <86jzgjfwqp.fsf@gnu.org> <87sev78arx.fsf@gmail.com> <86le0z89u1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o75v87n1.fsf@gmail.com> <86frr786k7.fsf@gnu.org> <86frr66s0o.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19697"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, nicolas@n16f.net, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii To: Christopher Dimech Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 17 17:24:06 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sfLHi-0004wz-Bz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:24:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sfLGv-0000D8-Dz; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:23:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sfLGt-0000Cr-Sm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:23:16 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sfLGs-0002Cf-GD; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:23:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=ya5gPi9wkfmoCK9nU22Hj18qGZBtxEl4OO6dXjzaISw=; b=Mx/R+XyR9KBsMy2PTiwZ O5m9daakSROsfCnPxcNA9PNVqR01YYXNBu5Ps30Lni6ULhByZuoRE5+pIIbdOyudoWS9maO8i6LVv lUXPae6+9izQ8p7dNhq+porN4VJ1gssoioOwf+jb8RwPMG5WH4Fd/QI1Ete3ZedQ21vcShPdqc6BN rahyaTEwWPB8rS0ZKjgZdhWrbS+TGS7qR+kN4ErPN8DCbGM017Wl64/vCpFNxWoqjnjivu8C+vBDF Qk8mAZO/aRteDckG3YuYMcGNNNsLfkaFKT7tyH2UJq3O2aqWtebaANzrp6EKNHSk0htVs2t9Z/2l2 Q5u5sjqmBUy05Q==; Original-Received: from acorallo by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sfLGh-0006Ug-VI; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:23:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Christopher Dimech's message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2024 23:21:48 +0200") X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322860 Archived-At: Christopher Dimech writes: >> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2024 at 8:07 AM >> From: "Andrea Corallo" >> To: "Christopher Dimech" >> Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, nicolas@n16f.net= , arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Eli Zaretskii" >> Subject: Re: Emacs ffi >> >> Christopher Dimech writes: >>=20 >> >> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2024 at 8:32 AM >> >> From: "Andrea Corallo" >> >> To: "Eli Zaretskii" >> >> Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, nicolas@n16f.= net, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Subject: Re: Emacs ffi >> >> >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> >> >> From: Andrea Corallo >> >> >> Cc: Suhail Singh , gerd.moellmann@gmail= .com, >> >> >> nicolas@n16f.net, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> >> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:31:49 -0400 >> >> >> >> >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> > The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ libr= ary to >> >> >> > declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain na= me. >> >> >> > That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program >> >> >> > which loads it. >> >> >> >> >> >> But we could do the same for our hypothetical ffi machinery, that = is: >> >> >> `define-ffi-library' could fail if the shared library is not expor= ting >> >> >> the predetermined symbol we expect no? >> >> > >> >> > Of course. But how many such libraries do that? >> >> >> >> Dunno, ATM very few if not zero I guess. >> > >> > If there are no existing libraries that export the required symbol, it >> > raises legitimate concerns about the feasibility and utility of the >> > approach. Essentially, if the mechanism put in place is not supported = by >> > any available libraries, then the mechanism is ineffective and overly >> > idealistic. >> > >> > There exists a large disconnect between theoretical compliance and >> > practical usability. If the requirements for compliance are so stringe= nt >> > or specific that no existing libraries can meet them, then it could be >> > argued that the approach is not grounded in the reality of software >> > development. >>=20 >> I disagree, this is normal evolution for software ex: every time a new >> programming language is created (or a new feature is added to it) >> compilers implement the related support, even if no programs are using >> that language or that new extension at present. Is this a large >> disconnect between theoretical compliance and practical usability? No, >> is just that users will come later. >>=20 >> If Emacs requires the symbol maybe compatible libraries will just export >> it afterwards (given the cost is close to zero). - Andrea > > It is imposing an additional requirement that isn't typically necessary=20 > in most other environments. > > Typically, mathematical libraries are designed to be widely applicable > and used across various platforms and applications. Requiring these > libraries to export a specific symbol or be designed with editor > compatibility in mind is an unnecessary hurdle. Developers of libraries > do not prioritize compatibility with editors like Emacs. > > To overcome the hurdle that Emacs is bringing upon itself, of requiring > GPL compliance for mathematical libraries, it should provide its own > built-in library as suggested by E. Berg. It is the pragmatic way to do > it. I disagreed with Berg initially, but I can now understand his > frustrations with the whole emacs design. > > Some free software simply cannot be used with GPL-licensed software like= =20 > Emacs without violating the terms of one or both licenses. Requiring GPL= =20 > compliance for integration is banal. Particularly when Emacs is not the= =20 > one providing the library. It will be the user who will be using. One=20 > simply cannot accuse a user to breaking any license if the library is not > GPL compliant. The landscape of free software licenses is diverse, with= =20 > many different licenses with many not compatible with each other. You=E2= =80=99d=20 > have to put every teenager in the world in jail, and you can=E2=80=99t do= that !=20 > > But this message does not resonate within the minds of the core emacs mai= ntainers,=20 > with the trend continuing for many years to come. Some believe that ever= ybody=20 > in the world doesn=E2=80=99t get it about free software, and even that ev= erybody in the=20 > world is a crook and that everybody in the world is trying to steal free = software=20 > and make bad use of it. I do not approve of such ideas. Many think they= know > everything about copyright infringement, but never been thrown out of cou= rt on=20 > a motion to dismiss.=20=20 > > It's always the same, you'll get prima donna maintainers who are at the s= ame=20 > level of priests, who preach a lot about licensing scenarios. But have n= ever=20 > been there, never done it, but preaching a lot about what others can do a= nd what=20 > they cannot do. Too much coercion was surely not what we wanted to apply. Looking at your Emacs contribution track I guess we have "been there" and "did it" more than you, so I'm sorry but I don't understand where *your* preaching is coming from. This is my last (of very few) replies to you on this subject =F0=9F=91=8B