From: Mohsen BANAN <emacs@mohsen.1.banan.byname.net>
To: Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st>
Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>,
emacs-devel@gnu.org, "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stability of core packages
Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 22:58:38 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <ygev8h4isxd.fsf@PML-1006.intra> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJf-WoTw=WPmRaimba2brGaorpQ3CXAsXCfKihChOTx+T-JrVQ@mail.gmail.com> (Corwin Brust's message of "Sun, 30 Apr 2023 08:12:57 -0500")
Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> writes:
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2023 at 4:47 PM Mohsen BANAN
> <emacs@mohsen.1.banan.byname.net> wrote:
>> ...
>> >> If you want to go with something like this, you
>> >> have to revisit the package retrieval model.
>
> [SNIP]
>
>> -----------
>> Why does Doom use straight.el and not package.el?
>>
>> package.el simply doesn’t cut it. Its flaws become
>> apparent the more packages you manage, the more
>> complex your config becomes, and how often those
>> packages see updates:
> This is the same doomemacs project[1] that does all development
> against HEAD of master, correct? I track three Emacs branches, all
> of which see frequent pushes. Work is regularly merged back to trunk.
My mentioning doomemacs was not an endorsement of
doomemacs ...
> so I think the lesson here isn't technical, but
> something more like:
>
> 1. For powerusers, package.el isn't better than manually tracking
> package versions.
> 2. Tracking package versions is so difficult that Emacs
> re-distributers find it worthwhile to hard-code working combinations.
>
> I think the issue is the packaging landscape has matured significantly
> thus it is time to reconsider the uses-cases Emacs should support -
> and that's the point of this thread.
Exactly.
> Meanwhile, I think the practical upshot of the approach taken by doom
> (and straight.el, in general) is to push tracking what versions of
> which packages work together to individual uses. I feel it would be a
> step backward for Emacs to adopt this approach as the default,
> expecting all users to learn to do it. User-managed explicit package
> version pinning does seem like a cool thing to support -- I hope
> package-vc helps pave the way for core support for that use-case. But
> it should not be the default: I would be sad if we decide to expect
> new users to master package pinning to try out new features.
That is not what I am saying or suggesting.
Over the past several years, we have learned
various things from:
1) the packaging landscape
2) package archive providers
3) Emacs re-distributers
Right now, in practice, Emacs re-distributers
maintain the stable manifest of the matching sets
for each release of emacs.
I am suggesting two things:
1) package.el should evolve or be replaced with
something that is the equivalent of
straight.el.
2) The responsibility for maintaining a stable
matching set of packages for each release of emacs
should come down to package archive providers (not
the Emacs re-distributers). Package archive
providers should maintain stable and consistent
manifests. Emacs re-distributers and emacs
end-users can selectively overwrite these, but
that won't be the default.
The challenge here is that in the existing emacs
ecosystem, basic emacs (emacs+elpa), package
archive providers and emacs re-distributers have
no structure to facilitate convergence.
If basic emacs (emacs+elpa) could solve this
properly, the rest could have a pattern to
emulate. For that to happen, basic emacs needs to
learn the lessons of emacs re-distributers. That
was why I mentioned that experimenting with
straight.el is a good idea. Not as a capability,
but as a basis for existing policies and
practices.
...Mohsen
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-05-07 5:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 370+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-04-07 22:12 bug#62720: 29.0.60; Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot João Távora
2023-04-08 1:03 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-08 10:43 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-08 10:48 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 14:42 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-08 15:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 15:45 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-10 16:01 ` João Távora
2023-04-10 18:13 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-11 11:02 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 11:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 12:52 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 17:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 18:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 18:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 20:08 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 20:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 5:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 7:58 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 8:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 8:51 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 10:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 10:38 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:00 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:15 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 11:35 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 11:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 12:01 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:00 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 12:18 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:28 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 12:55 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 13:42 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 14:11 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 14:14 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 14:17 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 14:20 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 15:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 16:13 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 16:16 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 17:14 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 17:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 17:43 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 19:39 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 5:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 7:38 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 8:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 11:23 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 15:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 17:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 18:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 10:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 12:34 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-14 12:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 13:52 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-14 15:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 15:52 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 16:05 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:28 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 16:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 16:40 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:53 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-14 17:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 18:32 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:03 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 16:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 16:54 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 17:32 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:27 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 18:39 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:33 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 19:48 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 18:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 19:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 19:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:20 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 19:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 19:46 ` João Távora
2023-04-14 20:04 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 8:35 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 10:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 10:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 12:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-15 9:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 10:24 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 10:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 11:19 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-15 12:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-15 13:36 ` João Távora
2023-04-15 16:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 21:16 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-16 10:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-16 20:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-16 21:54 ` João Távora
2023-04-17 2:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-17 2:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 1:25 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 11:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 20:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 20:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 21:15 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 13:04 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 14:04 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 16:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 16:17 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 15:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 16:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 16:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 16:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:27 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:27 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 17:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 12:57 ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 14:02 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 14:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 15:45 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 16:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 17:49 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 18:56 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-18 19:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 19:36 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 11:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 8:50 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 12:13 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-19 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:21 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 18:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:33 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 4:26 ` tomas
2023-04-19 19:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 19:46 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 20:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 20:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 21:58 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:29 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 22:42 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:58 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 22:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 22:21 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 22:43 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-20 10:02 ` bug#62720: 29.0.60; Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 10:31 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 11:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 11:53 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 12:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 13:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 13:56 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:25 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:31 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:40 ` João Távora
2023-04-21 0:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 15:03 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 14:51 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 14:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 18:08 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-20 18:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 18:53 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 7:48 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 8:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 9:38 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 11:43 ` João Távora
2023-04-24 13:01 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-24 13:12 ` Robert Pluim
2023-04-24 20:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-24 22:45 ` João Távora
2023-04-21 0:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 6:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-21 10:19 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 11:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-21 23:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 0:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 10:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 11:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 12:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 12:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 23:46 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 6:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 11:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 13:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-23 21:53 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-24 11:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-24 23:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 7:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-25 12:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 12:12 ` João Távora
2023-04-25 12:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-25 18:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-26 23:05 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-27 5:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-27 9:00 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-27 10:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-27 23:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-28 5:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-04 23:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-05-05 5:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-05 5:41 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-05 13:58 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-05-05 14:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-05-06 1:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:05 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-23 13:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 0:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-22 11:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 12:12 ` João Távora
2023-04-22 8:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 10:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-22 11:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <f32d7008-ea39-a9d7-8224-2c5b969236b7@gutov.dev>
[not found] ` <CALDnm53vPnODxpv_=nvOHRjLX-PfhyTS0MFudR0qZ3Pa-Lw-AQ@mail.gmail.com>
2023-04-19 23:25 ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 0:13 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 1:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 1:49 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 2:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 19:15 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 9:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 9:48 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 11:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 12:00 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 12:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 12:24 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 17:35 ` John Yates
2023-04-19 17:42 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:04 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 18:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:35 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-20 9:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:40 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-20 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-29 5:21 ` Stability of core packages emacs
2023-04-29 6:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-29 21:47 ` Mohsen BANAN
2023-04-30 6:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-30 9:07 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-30 13:12 ` Corwin Brust
2023-05-07 5:58 ` Mohsen BANAN [this message]
2023-05-05 4:36 ` David Masterson
2023-05-05 4:56 ` David Masterson
[not found] ` <878re3bdj6.fsf@penguin>
2023-05-05 4:59 ` David Masterson
2023-04-19 12:55 ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 13:18 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 14:13 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 22:10 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 8:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 12:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:22 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 18:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:32 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:51 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-20 13:47 ` history of ELPA packages and dependencies (was: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot)) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-20 13:58 ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 19:25 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 19:40 ` João Távora
2023-04-20 9:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 13:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 14:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 15:30 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 15:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 17:26 ` Stability of core packages Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 18:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 21:25 ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 14:12 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 12:31 ` What is :core? (was: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot)) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 12:57 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 13:40 ` bug#62720: 29.0.60; Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 16:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 17:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 17:47 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-14 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-22 23:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-23 13:02 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-23 20:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-25 12:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-05-01 2:00 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-13 16:59 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-13 15:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-13 16:13 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-13 19:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-14 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-14 16:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 8:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 10:41 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 10:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 11:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 13:21 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 13:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 17:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 17:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-15 18:19 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-15 18:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-16 13:45 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-16 15:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-16 10:44 ` João Távora
2023-04-16 14:23 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2023-04-12 20:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-13 5:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 15:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 16:29 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 20:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 15:45 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-11 18:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 20:28 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 5:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 9:18 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 9:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 12:37 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 13:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 16:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-11 19:44 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-11 20:05 ` João Távora
2023-04-11 21:36 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-12 7:34 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 5:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 7:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-12 8:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-12 14:14 ` Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2023-04-11 21:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-12 9:34 ` João Távora
2023-04-12 15:38 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-08 7:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-08 9:09 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 14:51 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-04-08 15:23 ` João Távora
2023-04-08 15:31 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-04-08 18:10 ` João Távora
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