From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Riley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX. Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:22:56 +0100 Organization: aich tea tea pea dicky riley dot net Message-ID: References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83pr371rl2.fsf@gnu.org> <873a03pmgn.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87d3z7pfwc.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <878w9v1k1v.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87r5nmo11z.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <1sq077-e9o.ln1@news.eternal-september.org> <8cv077-871.ln1@news.eternal-september.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268675532 17107 80.91.229.12 (15 Mar 2010 17:52:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:52:12 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 15 18:52:08 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NrESO-0006i9-So for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:52:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41343 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NrESD-0007P7-U6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:51:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nr7S0-0003jZ-S7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:23:09 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49397 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nr7Rv-0003jQ-Qj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:23:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nr7Ru-0001Mq-1N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:23:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f210.google.com ([209.85.220.210]:43190) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nr7Rt-0001Mg-T0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:23:01 -0400 Original-Received: by fxm2 with SMTP id 2so120039fxm.26 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:organization :references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-type; bh=i2DgS8CYE2aSHtbmDdxi/JXgQO5SswpCamISJeF8pgY=; b=A96rB19z1dghTWRT5UCQUgiybmFosrfcdwaekNcp6iSQmtseJf66tcYxY6gINdFUdL Sq5ePdFHuQ66Wgv/FrPzWKbvjiNDgE7x5DxBcO+MgPuaREsgeSZ0u/S9yNPbQ1zOctpI qM5rgAwJishMEHY52mnLrdc+j6nTpRyFlAwMw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; b=ICDLrzZfOSkGUxP+t7+i29SRqzlMsYSkA1nIHH3cZANzo5FFu2d47M4YrRW6VmxPK7 9ziSm7kJhpLtf2QC+ibnlid+vrbv8A8dzyKVUrJfvs+3dHeO0QKrMZNbigBaqBOI5SB9 xLT3JcF5tdegwToCACQZ63QHjubgCK2SunLYU= Original-Received: by 10.87.45.14 with SMTP id x14mr13534180fgj.54.1268648579420; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([85.183.18.158]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l19sm2180213fgb.8.2010.03.15.03.22.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:22:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Miles Bader's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:47:59 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:50:14 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122014 Archived-At: Miles Bader writes: > Richard Riley writes: >> You keep calling things that are pretty obvious and core to UI design >> issues "flimsy" while offering little in objection. I guess your mind is >> made up. > > And you keep throwing up random unsubstantiated hand-waving as if it's > somehow authoritative. What have I said that is any way random? You made that up to camouflage your wishy washy defence for not supporting the rhs. There are plenty of authoritative HCI studies which support UI controls being consistent across desktop applications. I assumed you would have known that so I didn't go into more detail. > >> Frankly I am surprised you think its "flimsy" to make it consistent >> with the vast majority of other desktop applications. I call it very >> important. > > Consistency is sometimes important, but it's not some kind of magic > powder that always grants merit. The question (as Richard pointed > out) Yes it is. Consistency is always of some merit. Its why it exists in well designed apps and products. > is whether "consistency" is actually _important_ in _this_ case. It > may Consistency is always of some importance. And over thinking it for Emacs is not healthy IMO. > indeed be, but so far nobody has provided any real support for that > position other than vague hand-waving, and I think there's been equally > good support for the opposition position (not saying a whole lot, I > admit). I have seen nothing which comes even close to warranting a departure of the standard right hand side positioning for desktop apps. > > Granted, vague hand-waving is rife in the HCI field, but it's no more > convincing for that. > > -Miles This vague hand waving of which you speak is non existent. The fact that UI controls in the same place IS beneficial surely is not disputed. Next you'll be telling me its "vague hand waving" to have the same Desktop key sequences to cut/paste/close windows etc across different apps. Admittedly that, though, doesnt come into an Emacs discussion ;) And once more you have thrown vaguely veiled scorn at relatively strong reasons for positioning it on the right while providing little if any support for placing it anywhere else. Is it the end of the world to place it left? Of course not. Is it better its where it is on most other apps? I think it is. And there is nothing "flimsy" or "wishy washy" about that. regards r.