From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:08:54 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1111219043.820733.143980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111244921 1647 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 15:08:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:08:41 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 16:08:40 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCfZ5-00061F-Vy for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:08:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCfpn-000709-Qs for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:25:51 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 82 Original-X-Trace: individual.net 7Br7TUxp8l4gT6Z7cl9KuQENEvbjagWVShkdlZfub8V7mW0dq2 X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:TRPSHGH+4OVbWhG5DePlUbgVGkU= Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:129394 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24949 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24949 PT writes: > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:17 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> Some of the ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users >> find it so annoying that they protest vociferously each time >> someone suggests them to be turned on by default. > > And this is the wrong point of view. I'm a veteran user. I can turn > anything off I don't like, but a newbie cannot turn the useful > things on until he gets to know emacs better. The problem is they > usually give up (at least the ones I met), because they miss the > convenience features! > > I support turning every useful feature on by default. I don't really >see how a veteran user can find anything annoying. I can put some >lines into my emacs and I won't see that thing ever again. > > Newbies first! Veterans can fix anything they don't like. And that is the wrong point of view. If ``cool stuff'' is turned off because the veteran users find it so annoying, the solution is not to turn it on by default before it gets changed in a way that stops the annoyance. We don't need dancing paperclips, no thanks. But that does not mean that we don't need a help system at all. Indeed, Emacs gives out messages pointing out keybindings and stuff (and marks menus with them). But it does that in a way that does not hamper productivity. If you take a look at the Emacs developer list, you will frequently find long fights going on about features. Basically, for something to be enabled by default, it needs to have a history of working, of not causing massive resource problems, of not blocking previously working editing practices without an obvious escape route and so on. And often, after long fights and arguments, the proponents then come up with a solution that is so compelling that it gets adopted in pretty unanimous agreement. And that is a much more healthy process than the "let's throw everything that's frilly on at once". Yes, there are projects that adopt that strategy, and people tend to fawn on them for a few months, then drop them again. For example, take the toolbar. The XEmacs toolbar is one of those distinguishing things that make me say "I don't want to use that, it is so repulsive". I can stand the current Emacs toolbar, in contrast, for longer amounts of time without aesthetic problems. With the singular exception of Gnus, the icons of which are absolutely garish. Probably because they have been designed to fit with XEmacs. There are other things that are getting worked out, like enabling auto-compression-mode and auto-image-mode: there are some cases where using them causes inappropriate effects, and the trend in Emacs development is not to integrate such stuff before the problems are under control. And this "don't enable it until it has a quality that makes it unannoying even when you have only marginal use for it" strategy makes for more solid results in the long run. There is no sense in encouraging integrating half-baked stuff by popular demand until nobody can do serious work without half a dozen extensions interfering with productivity. Emacs contains hundreds of features that will be at most marginally interesting to most users. If you have to configure a few dozen off before Emacs starts becoming useful for productive work, you might as well forget about proselytizing. Font locking now gets in the vicinity where one can consider making the default on. Previously, it would make Emacs stall on large files, not an acceptable default for serious work. At the moment where using it becomes more or less just a matter of taste instead of technical necessity, and when the defaults are reasonably tasteful to appeal to a larger audience even when exposed for longer amounts of time to it, then the time has come to switch it on by default. I'll switch it off immediately again, but if I do so, it should only be because I prefer pure black-on-white for everything as a matter of personal taste, not because it impedes Emacs operation and human interaction. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum