From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Making Emacs more newbie friendly Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:33:37 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: References: <874qf8d3cy.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111246434 5696 80.91.229.2 (19 Mar 2005 15:33:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 19 16:33:54 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCfxX-0000G1-8c for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:33:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCgEF-0005n2-61 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:51:07 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 32 Original-X-Trace: individual.net nonI4KxRiU26Yd7W0LdzcAk31hS44P63xkJ/ViRM5IWQIL8ltv X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:iDnn0gA19+AijXz6XejEx+ZTvGA= Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:129396 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:24951 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help:24951 PT writes: > The newbies I met usually used a "visual" editor before. Like > SlickEdit, Eclipse or Visual Studio. Strange concept of a "newbie" here. > Compared to these editors Emacs is very strange the first time. I > think the default behavior of emacs should be more similar to these > editors to make the initial transition easier. Compared to a Kazoo, a violin is very strange the first time. Yet you don't see a trend of musicians demanding more Kazoo-like violins to make the initial transition easier. Emacs is an inherently complex tool. This complexity is productive in the hands of experienced users, and this productivity is what makes the decision for Emacs, in the long run, a rewarding one. People that don't want to deal with complexity will remain only marginally longer with Emacs before abandoning it if Emacs gets dumbed down. So the vetoing power should stay with those that have an interest of keeping Emacs as their working editors for decades. If we can improve the first month of a newby without souring the last decade of a seasoned user, we will by all means do so. But bending over backwards for the sake of people that are unlikely to stay with Emacs in the long run, anyway, is a waste of effort. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum