* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2006-03-17 16:07 ` Jason Rumney
2006-03-17 16:08 ` Lennart Borgman
` (5 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2006-03-17 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel
Kim F. Storm wrote:
> Checking whether 'gcc' is available...
> Checking whether gcc requires '-mno-cygwin'...
> The system cannot find the file specified.
> Checking whether W32 API headers are too old...
>
> C:\gnu\devel\nt>gcc -mno-cygwin -c junk.c
> gcc: installation problem, cannot exec `cc1': No such file or directory
>
> Configure failed.
>
It seems your installation of gcc is incomplete.
> Would someone like to work on a simple, step-by-step
> guide for building this using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW),
> tell _exactly_ where to find the right versions of those tools,
> libaries, etc. it would be nice.
>
The problem with putting such advice in INSTALL is that it quickly
becomes out of date, as URLs change and the versions found on these
third party sites are upgraded.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-17 16:07 ` Jason Rumney
@ 2006-03-17 16:08 ` Lennart Borgman
2006-03-18 1:13 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
` (4 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-17 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel
Kim F. Storm wrote:
> Would someone like to work on a simple, step-by-step
> guide for building this using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW),
> tell _exactly_ where to find the right versions of those tools,
> libaries, etc. it would be nice.
>
Please take a look here:
http://ourcomments.org/testing/w32-build-emacs.html
A script for building (and quite a lot more) is here:
http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/DL/w32%20util/build/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-17 16:07 ` Jason Rumney
2006-03-17 16:08 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-17 17:06 ` Drew Adams
` (3 more replies)
2006-03-18 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
` (3 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 4 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-17 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/17/06, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> So you lost me there... I just installed MSYS and MINGW, and now
> you're telling me to run stuff in COMMAND.COM ?
Sorry, I was just trying to be helpful. I think Lennart's building
instructions are as good as they get. Building on Windows *is* a
complex process, in particular the image library stuff. And I wouldn't
have been able to find working makeinfo executables without a pointer
from Eli.
I know we don't want to advertise non-released builds of Emacs; but if
someone is interested, I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
port to some accessible place every few days, as long as someone
provides that place (I don't have publicly accessible servers to put
the tarball into). I already build the binary daily, so ftp'ing to a
repository is not a big deal.
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* RE: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-17 17:06 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-17 18:00 ` Lennart Borgman
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2006-03-17 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
port to some accessible place every few days
I would like that. I think there may also be others who would take advantage
of it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-17 17:06 ` Drew Adams
@ 2006-03-17 18:00 ` Lennart Borgman
2006-03-17 23:27 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-17 18:30 ` Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g) Reiner Steib
2006-03-18 1:21 ` W32 version crashes on C-g Kim F. Storm
3 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-17 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, Kim F. Storm
Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> I know we don't want to advertise non-released builds of Emacs; but if
> someone is interested, I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
> port to some accessible place every few days, as long as someone
> provides that place (I don't have publicly accessible servers to put
> the tarball into). I already build the binary daily, so ftp'ing to a
> repository is not a big deal.
>
I already upload those, but in the form of setup programs. I upload both
patched and unpatched versions. Normally I do that about once a week.
I recommend the unpatched versions for bug reporting etc. I personally
use the patched versions for some features that I have believed would
not go into Emacs now because of the feature freeze. I normally do not
test the unpatched versions. But I do test the patched versions and move
them from a test area into a place for normal download on my site.
(There is information about this on the site.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 18:00 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-17 23:27 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 0:01 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-17 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/17/06, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
> I already upload those, but in the form of setup programs.
Nice, I didn't know that. I was talking about something a bit more
private, though; for people who really wants to test, not as something
that you find in a web page while googling for "Emacs windows
binaries" or something like that. There's always the problem of
non-standard, non-released binaries becoming popular (which can
difficult bug reporting, for instance). In particular, as you say:
> But I do test the patched versions and move
> them from a test area into a place for normal download
> on my site.
so you're making available a 22.0.50 which is not the CVS 22.0.50, if
I understand correctly.
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 23:27 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-18 0:01 ` Lennart Borgman
2006-03-18 5:49 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-18 0:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
>
>
>> I already upload those, but in the form of setup programs.
>>
>
> Nice, I didn't know that. I was talking about something a bit more
> private, though; for people who really wants to test, not as something
> that you find in a web page while googling for "Emacs windows
> binaries" or something like that. There's always the problem of
> non-standard, non-released binaries becoming popular (which can
> difficult bug reporting, for instance). In particular, as you say:
>
>
>> But I do test the patched versions and move
>> them from a test area into a place for normal download
>> on my site.
>>
>
> so you're making available a 22.0.50 which is not the CVS 22.0.50, if
> I understand correctly.
>
Yes, that is true. I upload both a patched and an unpatched version. I
try to make this as clear as possible on the starting web page:
http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html
Especially I point out the problem with bug reporting.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 0:01 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-18 5:49 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 7:48 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-18 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/18/06, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
> Yes, that is true. I upload both a patched and an unpatched version. I
> try to make this as clear as possible on the starting web page:
Please, don't misunderstand me. You're doing a *superb* job.
BTW, is there any pointer to the patches you're installing? I already
build my Emacs and don't want to download a binary, but I'm interested
in some of your custom patches (I suppose I can always download the
source tarball and compare it with my checked out copy, but that seems
cumbersome, if you already have the patches around somewhere...).
Thanks,
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-17 17:06 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-17 18:00 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-17 18:30 ` Reiner Steib
2006-03-17 18:42 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-18 1:21 ` W32 version crashes on C-g Kim F. Storm
3 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Reiner Steib @ 2006-03-17 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, Kim F. Storm
On Fri, Mar 17 2006, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> I know we don't want to advertise non-released builds of Emacs; but if
> someone is interested, I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
> port to some accessible place every few days, as long as someone
> provides that place (I don't have publicly accessible servers to put
> the tarball into). I already build the binary daily, so ftp'ing to a
> repository is not a big deal.
There are already several places with Emacs 22 binaries for Windows:
Ralf Angeli already provides a version bundled with AUCTeX from time
to time at <ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/auctex/> (AFAICS, this the only
one with a gpg signature). The overhead wrt to AUCTeX (~3 MB) is
negligible in case you don't use AUCTeX.
IIRC Drew Adams uploads binaries to
<http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html>. Then there are at least
two projects on sourceforge.net (ntemacs, nqmacs).
If there is a need for more frequently updated binaries (say weekly),
they should be places on alpha.gnu.org, e.g. in /gnu/emacs/windows/.
Bye, Reiner.
--
,,,
(o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* RE: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-17 18:30 ` Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g) Reiner Steib
@ 2006-03-17 18:42 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-17 18:56 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2006-03-17 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
> I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
> port to some accessible place every few days
There are already several places with Emacs 22 binaries for Windows:
Ralf Angeli already provides a version bundled with AUCTeX from time
to time at <ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/auctex/> (AFAICS, this the only
one with a gpg signature). The overhead wrt to AUCTeX (~3 MB) is
negligible in case you don't use AUCTeX.
Cannot get to this by http. And I can't get to it using ftp site from behind
a firewall.
IIRC Drew Adams uploads binaries
No, that's Lennart Borgman, not I. I'm *looking* for a recent MS-Windows
binary.
to <http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html>.
Yes (thanks Lennart!), but I'm not sure how "vanilla" those binaries are.
I, for instance, am looking for the kind of thing I can get at nqmacs -
nothing added, no installer, no changes to my machine, no predetermination
of directories, no built-in use of gnuserver/gnuclient, just a simple zip
file of everything Emacs, including source code and a MS-Windows executable.
Then there are at least two projects on sourceforge.net
(ntemacs, nqmacs).
Very old binaries, unfortunately.
If there is a need for more frequently updated binaries (say weekly),
they should be places on alpha.gnu.org, e.g. in /gnu/emacs/windows/.
Cannot get to alpha.gnu.org via http.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-17 18:42 ` Drew Adams
@ 2006-03-17 18:56 ` Lennart Borgman
2006-03-17 18:58 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-17 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
Drew Adams wrote:
> to <http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html>.
>
> Yes (thanks Lennart!), but I'm not sure how "vanilla" those binaries are.
> I, for instance, am looking for the kind of thing I can get at nqmacs -
> nothing added, no installer, no changes to my machine, no predetermination
> of directories, no built-in use of gnuserver/gnuclient, just a simple zip
> file of everything Emacs, including source code and a MS-Windows executable.
>
As I have tried to explain on
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsW32 the unpatched binaries
are very vanilla. Please read under "Want zip-file" there.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* RE: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-17 18:56 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-17 18:58 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-20 18:32 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2006-03-17 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
> to <http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html>.
>
> Yes (thanks Lennart!), but I'm not sure how "vanilla" those
> binaries are. I, for instance, am looking for the kind of
> thing I can get at nqmacs - nothing added, no installer,
> no changes to my machine, no predetermination
> of directories, no built-in use of gnuserver/gnuclient, just
> a simple zip file of everything Emacs, including source code
> and a MS-Windows executable.
As I have tried to explain on
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsW32 the unpatched binaries
are very vanilla. Please read under "Want zip-file" there.
OK, will do; thanks. Sorry for any misinformation.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* RE: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-17 18:58 ` Drew Adams
@ 2006-03-20 18:32 ` Drew Adams
2006-03-21 10:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2006-03-20 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
> to <http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html>.
>
> Yes (thanks Lennart!), but I'm not sure how "vanilla" those
> binaries are. I, for instance, am looking for the kind of
> thing I can get at nqmacs - nothing added, no installer,
> no changes to my machine, no predetermination
> of directories, no built-in use of gnuserver/gnuclient, just
> a simple zip file of everything Emacs, including source code
> and a MS-Windows executable.
As I have tried to explain on
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsW32 the
unpatched binaries
are very vanilla. Please read under "Want zip-file" there.
I said:
OK, will do; thanks. Sorry for any misinformation.
I haven't yet had time to try your site again (since a few months ago), but
the EmacsWiki discussion you point to is not too promising. You still speak
there of registry changes and such. And Mathias Dahl just added another
request in that discussion today for a vanilla zip file, so I'm guessing
that that is still not available from your site.
Also, I notice now that you mentioned yourself that you provide Emacs
binaries (only?) in the form of a setup program:
> I already upload those, but in the form of setup programs.
I think it's great what you offer on your site, Lennart, but the original
question from Juanma was, I think, about posting a zip (actually, he
mentioned a binary tarball). If you also offer such a zip on your site, then
great; I apologize for the noise and misunderstanding.
If you offer Emacs only through an installer, however, then that's not the
same thing. I just want a complete set of Emacs files, including a binary
for MS Windows and all of the source files. I don't want something to
install it for me. I don't want anything to mess with my registry settings,
impose a directory structure, install any extras, provide a particular
version of gnuclient/server, or anything else.
I'm not claiming that your installer does all or any of those things; I
don't know. I'm just saying that what Juanma originally proposed making
available, a zip of Emacs for Windows, would be something that I would be
interested in, wherever it is.
Again, apologies if I have misunderstood your site or your messages.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-20 18:32 ` Drew Adams
@ 2006-03-21 10:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-22 15:16 ` Mathias Dahl
2006-03-25 10:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-21 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 3/20/06, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> I'm just saying that what Juanma originally proposed making
> available, a zip of Emacs for Windows, would be something that
> I would be interested in, wherever it is.
So I reiterate my offer: if someone makes the space available (in
alpha.gnu.org or in some other FTP site, preferably with HTTP download
access), I can upload, with a weekly-or-better frequency, a binary
build of Emacs for Windows, with the following characteristics:
- .zip or .tar.gz, as preferred
- built with a recent MinGW environment (I'm currently using GCC 3.4.5)
- built with "make realclean bootstrap install"
- from a bare bones checkout of CVS HEAD (no custom mods, and no
additional .el packages, not even gnuserv.el)
- with image support for all supported image types (on Windows,
i.e., does not include Ghostscript)
- no additional binaries: no image libraries DLLs (available on the
GnuWin32 Project page), no gnuclient*.exe, etc.
- includes info files
- in-place installation, so it includes the full sources
Currently I'm using an optimized, non-debug build, so I would remove
the .o files (or, to be precise, the full oo-spd/ directories); but if
a debug build is preferred, they could be included on the .zip; as a
datapoint, today's .zip with .o files is about 51.3 MiB, without is
44.6 MiB).
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-21 10:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-22 15:16 ` Mathias Dahl
2006-03-25 10:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Mathias Dahl @ 2006-03-22 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> So I reiterate my offer: if someone makes the space available (in
> alpha.gnu.org or in some other FTP site, preferably with HTTP download
> access), I can upload, with a weekly-or-better frequency, a binary
> build of Emacs for Windows, with the following characteristics:
I am sure many would appreciate that but, as you say, you must have
some place to put it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g)
2006-03-21 10:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-22 15:16 ` Mathias Dahl
@ 2006-03-25 10:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-25 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:29:40 +0100
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
>
> Currently I'm using an optimized, non-debug build, so I would remove
> the .o files (or, to be precise, the full oo-spd/ directories); but if
> a debug build is preferred, they could be included on the .zip
As a matter of policy, a debug build is _always_ preferred.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2006-03-17 18:30 ` Binaries for W32 (was: W32 version crashes on C-g) Reiner Steib
@ 2006-03-18 1:21 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-18 6:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
3 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-03-18 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On 3/17/06, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>> "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>> So you lost me there... I just installed MSYS and MINGW, and now
>> you're telling me to run stuff in COMMAND.COM ?
>
> Sorry, I was just trying to be helpful.
I'm very sorry if I did sound ungreatful. I had a little time
left over to try to make ido grasp UNC file names -- and then
instead of being able to "focus on the task", I suddenly found
myself wound up in W32 crashes and all sorts of build problems.
But I can confirm that Lennarth's unpatched version runs fine.
> I think Lennart's building
> instructions are as good as they get.
I believe you. I haven't had time to study them myself -- my
interest is _not_ building Emacs on W32. But if we expect people
to be able to do it, the instructions really need improvement
or at least a pointer to where you can find better instructions
(even if the link is broken later on, the user will know that such
instructions exist, and may search for them).
> Building on Windows *is* a
> complex process, in particular the image library stuff.
I believe you :-)
> And I wouldn't
> have been able to find working makeinfo executables without a pointer
> from Eli.
That pointer should be in nt/INSTALL too.
>
> I know we don't want to advertise non-released builds of Emacs; but if
> someone is interested, I could upload a binary tarball of the Windows
> port to some accessible place every few days, as long as someone
> provides that place (I don't have publicly accessible servers to put
> the tarball into). I already build the binary daily, so ftp'ing to a
> repository is not a big deal.
It seems other are already doing that -- with varying frequency (and stability).
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 1:21 ` W32 version crashes on C-g Kim F. Storm
@ 2006-03-18 6:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 11:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-19 1:32 ` Kim F. Storm
0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-18 6:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/18/06, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
> I'm very sorry if I did sound ungreatful.
No, don't worry. What I meant is that my message tried to be helpful,
because I thought you already had the whole thing set up.
> I believe you. I haven't had time to study them myself -- my
> interest is _not_ building Emacs on W32. But if we expect people
> to be able to do it, the instructions really need improvement
> or at least a pointer to where you can find better instructions
> (even if the link is broken later on, the user will know that such
> instructions exist, and may search for them).
I think nt/INSTALL should be gradually refined. It already has a lot
of good stuff; what it is not, however, is a step-by-step guide. So at
this moment, anyone wanting to build on Emacs has to be brave, and
willing to invest a bit of time and also be able to track things down
by h(im|er)self. I have a little experience building on Emacs, and yet
I find so cumbersome setting up the building environment that I've
resorted to having everything needed on a build/ directory (tools,
.BAT scripts I use, etc.) so I just zip it and move it to new
machines...
> That pointer should be in nt/INSTALL too.
Truth be told, I don't remember where did I get makeinfo, only that
Eli pointed it to me, and since then I've had it all zipped and moved
'round :(
> It seems other are already doing that -- with varying frequency (and stability).
Yes. I had forgotten about Lennart's page. My fault.
BTW, if you have extra free time ;-) you could take a look at the
"100% CPU on socket select" problem... :-)
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 6:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-18 11:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 12:45 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-19 1:32 ` Kim F. Storm
1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 11:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, storm
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 07:00:03 +0100
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> I think nt/INSTALL should be gradually refined.
Please feel free to suggest such refinements.
> It already has a lot of good stuff; what it is not, however, is a
> step-by-step guide.
It's supposed to be, and I think it comes close.
> So at this moment, anyone wanting to build on Emacs has to be brave,
> and willing to invest a bit of time and also be able to track things
> down by h(im|er)self.
I disagree. When I first built Emacs on Windows, I didn't need
anything except setting up a working development environment. After
that, Emacs configured and built like a charm. (The only issue was
the 3rd party image libraries that had incompatible headers. But
that's hardly a problem with Emacs.) I didn't need any bravery.
> I have a little experience building on Emacs, and yet
> I find so cumbersome setting up the building environment
I find it very simple, perhaps because the first thing I do is
download GCC, Binutils, and every other ported GNU package (Coreutils,
Sed, Grep, Gawk, Make, Texinfo, Diffutils, and Patch) one needs for
decent development.
Note that nt/INSTALL currently doesn't aim at explaining how to set up
a working development environment, only what add-ons to an already
working environment one will need to build Emacs. INSTALL assumes
that you can already compile C programs on Windows (that wasn't true
for Kim), so you only need to be told to get rm.exe and such likes.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 11:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 12:45 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 20:46 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-18 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, storm
On 3/18/06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Please feel free to suggest such refinements.
You only have to take a look at Lennart's EmacsW32 pages to see which
kinds of things aren't easy for beginners, and are not described in
nt/INSTALL.
> It's supposed to be, and I think it comes close.
As you say, it is a step-by-step guide to building Emacs, but not to
set up a working environment, and that's what causes trouble. Of
course once you've got every needed tool, building Emacs is easy.
> I disagree. When I first built Emacs on Windows, I didn't need
> anything except setting up a working development environment.
I repeat: setting up the environment is the hardest part. Even if the
user is a developer, if he happens to have tools from GnuWin32, Cygwin
and MinGW in his PATH (it's happened to me a couple times), you can
get mysterious errors while running make, for example.
> (The only issue was
> the 3rd party image libraries that had incompatible headers.
> But that's hardly a problem with Emacs.)
But I'm not talking about "problems with Emacs", just problems for a
user to download the source tarball and turn it into a working Emacs
binary. Incompatible headers, or libraries (the image libraries have
quite a few dependencies) can be daunting for the inexperienced.
Or, to put it in another way: Kim can hardly be considered a newbie,
and it's clear that he could have set up a working environment and
compiled Emacs, given a little time. But he hadn't the time, he looked
at nt/INSTALL and did not find what he needed. Whether that's a
problem in contents or presentation, I don't know.
> I didn't need any bravery.
You're more resourceful that I am :-)
> I find it very simple, perhaps because the first thing I do is
> download GCC, Binutils, and every other ported GNU package (Coreutils,
> Sed, Grep, Gawk, Make, Texinfo, Diffutils, and Patch) one needs for
> decent development.
Perhaps. I've been developing on Windows for years and didn't need
most of that, until I started hacking Emacs; so your definition of
"decent development" and mine are dissimilar.
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 12:45 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-18 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 16:55 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 20:46 ` Lennart Borgman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, storm
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 13:45:50 +0100
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
> Cc: storm@cua.dk, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On 3/18/06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > Please feel free to suggest such refinements.
>
> You only have to take a look at Lennart's EmacsW32 pages to see which
> kinds of things aren't easy for beginners, and are not described in
> nt/INSTALL.
Well, I already read Lennart's pages and incorporated in nt/INSTALL
everything I thought was worthwhile. So please suggest specific
refinements, if you think there's more to say.
> Or, to put it in another way: Kim can hardly be considered a newbie,
> and it's clear that he could have set up a working environment and
> compiled Emacs, given a little time. But he hadn't the time, he looked
> at nt/INSTALL and did not find what he needed. Whether that's a
> problem in contents or presentation, I don't know.
I didn't suggest to dismiss Kim's gripes. I'm trying to establish
what should be added to or modified in nt/INSTALL. I'm not arguing
that it is perfect and should not be changed.
Kim mentioned several additions, like detailed configure and build
instructions and a pointer to Lennart's site, which are already there.
I'm trying to figure out what is NOT there, or what should be reworded
to be more clear.
> > I find it very simple, perhaps because the first thing I do is
> > download GCC, Binutils, and every other ported GNU package (Coreutils,
> > Sed, Grep, Gawk, Make, Texinfo, Diffutils, and Patch) one needs for
> > decent development.
>
> Perhaps. I've been developing on Windows for years and didn't need
> most of that, until I started hacking Emacs; so your definition of
> "decent development" and mine are dissimilar.
Do we all agree that instructions to set up a suitable development
environment is the _only_ thing that is currently missing? Or does
something else Need Work (tm)?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 16:55 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-18 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/18/06, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Well, I already read Lennart's pages and incorporated in nt/INSTALL
> everything I thought was worthwhile. So please suggest specific
> refinements, if you think there's more to say.
For the image libraries support, Lennart lists which files from
GnuWin32 are really needed (the "current version" info is outdated,
though) which is kinda nice for the uninitiated. I don't think someone
relatively inexperienced can just read nt/INSTALL and determine what
should he download to build the image support, or where to put it.
> Do we all agree that instructions to set up a suitable development
> environment is the _only_ thing that is currently missing?
Yes, as I've said, setting up the development environment is the
hardest part. Once you've got the tools and the includes and
libraries, building is almost trivial.
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:55 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-18 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 20:38 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:55:40 +0100
> From: "Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> For the image libraries support, Lennart lists which files from
> GnuWin32 are really needed (the "current version" info is outdated,
> though) which is kinda nice for the uninitiated. I don't think someone
> relatively inexperienced can just read nt/INSTALL and determine what
> should he download to build the image support, or where to put it.
That's one reason why nt/INSTALL mentions Lennart's site.
It's possible that we could put that info in INSTALL, I just didn't
feel it was the right thing to do, especially since the bugs in the
ported image libraries are being fixed as we speak.
Anyway, advanced image support was not the reason for Kim's grief.
I'm sure he would be satisfied by the basic image formats, or even no
images at all, for the job he wanted to do.
> > Do we all agree that instructions to set up a suitable development
> > environment is the _only_ thing that is currently missing?
>
> Yes, as I've said, setting up the development environment is the
> hardest part. Once you've got the tools and the includes and
> libraries, building is almost trivial.
I asked about the development environment, and you added the
libraries. These are two separate issues.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 17:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 20:38 ` Lennart Borgman
2006-03-18 21:42 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-18 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Juanma Barranquero, emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> It's possible that we could put that info in INSTALL, I just didn't
> feel it was the right thing to do, especially since the bugs in the
> ported image libraries are being fixed as we speak.
>
I wrote some months ago to the maintainer of GnuWin32 (Kees Selenberg)
and asked about ports of newer image libraries. He responded quickly and
put up new versions. Unfortunately I forgot to tell it here at that
time. I do not know if anyone has had the time to test them since then.
Juanma, was it not you that worked with something in the image libraries
before? Have you tested the new versions from GnuWin32?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 20:38 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2006-03-18 21:42 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-18 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/18/06, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> wrote:
> Juanma, was it not you that worked with something in the image
> libraries before?
Yes.
> Have you tested the new versions from GnuWin32?
Yes, I install new libraries as soon as I'm aware of them, and I test
them against a bunch of images I have been saving for that. So far no
problem, though every now and then the .DLLs do change name :( For
example, you can see on lisp/ChangeLog that on 2006-01-23 I added a
new library name to `image-library-alist'.
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 12:45 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 20:46 ` Lennart Borgman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-03-18 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Eli Zaretskii, storm, emacs-devel
Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> I repeat: setting up the environment is the hardest part. Even if the
> user is a developer, if he happens to have tools from GnuWin32, Cygwin
> and MinGW in his PATH (it's happened to me a couple times), you can
> get mysterious errors while running make, for example.
>
I agree. I did quite a lot of testing before writing the suggestions for
this. I had to change my mind some times. (I struggled hard to get MSYS
working for building Emacs but finally gave it up.)
When I was doing this I also looked into the tools for the run time
environment for Emacs on w32. I think that should be considered too when
writing instructions for setting up a building environment. Doing so is
a bit frustrating, but maybe also tells us what should be changed in
Emacs to make things easier on w32.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 6:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-18 11:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-19 1:32 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-21 10:35 ` Juanma Barranquero
1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-03-19 1:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> BTW, if you have extra free time ;-) you could take a look at the
> "100% CPU on socket select" problem... :-)
Here is what I have done so far ... Somebody more familiar with
W32 programming should take over from here!
[from admin/FOR-RELEASE]
** TCP server processes do not work on Windows.
TCP/IP server processes created with `make-network-process' consume
excesive CPU on some Windows environments. Usages of 50% and 100%
CPU time have been observed on different Window XP configurations.
Seems to be a problem in sys_select in w32proc.c.
In its current form, it sys_select says the socket is ready, so we
call server_accept_connection which again calls accept() which returns
-1 with errno == WSAEWOULDBLOCK (10035) indicating that there is no
pending connection to accept.
It seems that to fix this, w32 server sockets must use WSAAsyncSelect
+ FD_ACCEPT to request notifications of incoming connections...
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-19 1:32 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2006-03-21 10:35 ` Juanma Barranquero
2006-03-21 12:43 ` Kim F. Storm
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2006-03-21 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
On 3/19/06, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
> Here is what I have done so far ... Somebody more familiar with
> W32 programming should take over from here!
The trouble is, must be someone familiar with the Emacs architecture
on Windows, too. I've never had the time to wrap my head around the
way the Windows port handles messages, the input thread, etc.
I'm very interested in working again on the emacsclient/emacsserver
stuff; but with a 50%+ CPU load, my old computer overheats in five
minutes :-(
--
/L/e/k/t/u
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-21 10:35 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-21 12:43 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-21 15:22 ` Juanma Barranquero
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-03-21 12:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
"Juanma Barranquero" <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> On 3/19/06, Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> wrote:
>
>> Here is what I have done so far ... Somebody more familiar with
>> W32 programming should take over from here!
>
> The trouble is, must be someone familiar with the Emacs architecture
> on Windows, too. I've never had the time to wrap my head around the
> way the Windows port handles messages, the input thread, etc.
I don't think you need to understand much (or any) of Emacs internals
to fix this bug.
AFAICS, the bug is in sys_select in w32proc.c which does not properly
emulate the "unix select" semantics for server sockets (in "listen"
mode).
Fixing that is pretty isolated from the rest of emacs.
>
> I'm very interested in working again on the emacsclient/emacsserver
> stuff; but with a 50%+ CPU load, my old computer overheats in five
> minutes :-(
So I guess you have the motivation to fix it :-)
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2006-03-17 16:52 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2006-03-18 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-19 1:44 ` Kim F. Storm
2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
` (2 subsequent siblings)
6 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 10:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:49:09 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> So you lost me there... I just installed MSYS and MINGW, and now
> you're telling me to run stuff in COMMAND.COM ?
You don't need MSYS, just MinGW.
The Makefile's produced by nt/configure.bat will run both with and
without a Unixy shell. And in any case, there's no need to invoke
configure.bat from a Unixy shell, since it's a batch file. (In fact,
some ports of sh.exe will not be able to run batch files at all.)
> C:\gnu\devel\nt>gcc -mno-cygwin -c junk.c
> gcc: installation problem, cannot exec `cc1': No such file or directory
Your GCC installation is broken or incomplete.
> I tried to look at nt/INSTALL, and rather than giving
> ONE CLEAR way to build it, it gives an utterly complex
> mix of basic CMD.COM, Cygwin, and MinGW stuff that may
> work in various combinations.
I understand that you were in a hurry and mildly annoyed, and in that
condition too complex installation instructions may cause a lot of
grief. But please look closer at nt/INSTALL: the ``complex mix'' is
described at the beginning, and after that you have sections labeled
"Confoguring", "Building", and "Installing" that describe the way to
build and install Emacs.
> Would someone like to work on a simple, step-by-step
> guide for building this using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW),
> tell _exactly_ where to find the right versions of those tools,
> libaries, etc. it would be nice.
nt/INSTALL assumes that you already have a working development
environment, and so it doesn't tell how to set up such an environment.
I don't object to adding such info (probably near the end, so that it
stays out of the way of the impatient ;-), but please understand that
you were trying to climb a very steep learning curve, hoping you will
be able to do that in about 5 seconds. It's just not so easy on
Windows.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-19 1:44 ` Kim F. Storm
0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-03-19 1:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
>> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:49:09 +0100
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> So you lost me there... I just installed MSYS and MINGW, and now
>> you're telling me to run stuff in COMMAND.COM ?
>
> You don't need MSYS, just MinGW.
I see.
> I understand that you were in a hurry and mildly annoyed, and in that
> condition too complex installation instructions may cause a lot of
> grief. But please look closer at nt/INSTALL: the ``complex mix'' is
> described at the beginning, and after that you have sections labeled
> "Confoguring", "Building", and "Installing" that describe the way to
> build and install Emacs.
Yes, I was in a hurry indeed.
> nt/INSTALL assumes that you already have a working development
> environment, and so it doesn't tell how to set up such an environment.
That's my problem, yes.
> I don't object to adding such info (probably near the end, so that it
> stays out of the way of the impatient ;-), but please understand that
> you were trying to climb a very steep learning curve, hoping you will
> be able to do that in about 5 seconds. It's just not so easy on
> Windows.
Well, I wasn't able to do it (*) in 2 hours either...
(*) "it" == "setup a working development environment"
But them, I hadn't read Lennart's advise (I still haven't read them,
as I could use his pre-built Emacs)..
Still, I wonder why the version at ntemacs.sourceforge.net crashes on
C-g. Probably a build-error, but who knows? [I'm not going to look
for the answer :-)]
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2006-03-18 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 17:14 ` Eric Hanchrow
` (2 more replies)
2006-03-18 16:27 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 16:29 ` Eric Hanchrow
6 siblings, 3 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:49:09 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> Would someone like to work on a simple, step-by-step
> guide for building this
I now added to nt/INSTALL a short section with concise instructions
for the impatient. I don't think it would have solved your problems,
since what I added still assumes a working development environment,
which you didn't have. But perhaps it will be useful for others.
Please take a look and give any critique you have.
> using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW), tell _exactly_ where to find the
> right versions of those tools, libaries, etc. it would be nice.
I don't think we can single out only one toolkit. We cannot dictate
people what compiler and development tools to use, as they might have
goals other than just building Emacs.
Lennart's site (cited in nt/INSTALL) has detailed instructions on
where to find auxiliary tools and libraries that are not part of the
development environment (i.e. compiler, linker, etc.).
If people who routinely build Emacs would list here where they get the
basic and auxiliary tools and libraries, I might find time to add a
list to nt/INSTALL that would summarize everybody's experience and
suggestions.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 17:14 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 17:15 ` Chong Yidong
2006-03-19 0:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eric Hanchrow @ 2006-03-18 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
>>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
Eli> If people who routinely build Emacs would list here where
Eli> they get the basic and auxiliary tools and libraries, I might
Eli> find time to add a list to nt/INSTALL that would summarize
Eli> everybody's experience and suggestions.
Everything I know is in
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/BuildingCvsWThirtyTwoMingw, up
to, but not including, the section titled "A guide for building Emacs
with MinGW".
--
"I said, `Shut up!' " Ms. Glass recalled ... " `You do not!
Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God!' So I went to Nina, my boss, and
said, `Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God!' "
--- Julie Salamon, in the New York Times
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 17:14 ` Eric Hanchrow
@ 2006-03-18 17:15 ` Chong Yidong
2006-03-18 18:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 18:59 ` Jason Rumney
2006-03-19 0:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2006-03-18 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, Kim F. Storm
>> using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW), tell _exactly_ where to find the
>> right versions of those tools, libaries, etc. it would be nice.
>
> I don't think we can single out only one toolkit. We cannot dictate
> people what compiler and development tools to use, as they might have
> goals other than just building Emacs.
On the other hand, it's simply frustrating to be told: "to set up a
build environment, use either MSVC, or cygwin GCC, or MingW GCC, and
one of several possible versions of make, with or without bash, and we
won't tell you whether or not to use MSYS"... then, when you choose
some combination of these components, you get a build failure.
I support the idea of having a "default" build environment that we can
suggest people use if they want something that Just Works. Like Kim
suggested, the INSTALL file could explain exactly how to set up this
default environment. After that, we can go into details about the
other configurations that also work, for those who are interested.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 17:15 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2006-03-18 18:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 18:59 ` Jason Rumney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel, storm
> Cc: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm), emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:15:18 -0500
>
> Like Kim suggested, the INSTALL file could explain exactly how to
> set up this default environment.
Unless I misunderstand what you mean, such an _exact_ explanation is
going to be VERY long, because we will need to explain how to install
GCC/Binutils, and any other tools that are needed, including what to
download, how to unpack, what environment variables to set, how to
avoid conflicts with other packages, how to do that on the several
supported variants of Windows, etc. Take a look at Lennart's site,
for example, I believe he tried to do just that.
I think it's beyond the scope of nt/INSTALL to include such stuff. Of
course, volunteers are welcome to try to come up with something
reasonable and send it.
A more realistic goal might be a list of environments that are known
to work for building Emacs, and auxiliary tools to be installed with
each environment.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 17:15 ` Chong Yidong
2006-03-18 18:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 18:59 ` Jason Rumney
2006-03-18 19:11 ` Chong Yidong
1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2006-03-18 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Kim F. Storm, emacs-devel
Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
> On the other hand, it's simply frustrating to be told: "to set up a
> build environment, use either MSVC, or cygwin GCC, or MingW GCC, and
> one of several possible versions of make, with or without bash, and we
> won't tell you whether or not to use MSYS"... then, when you choose
> some combination of these components, you get a build failure.
from nt/INSTALL:
MSYS sh.exe also appears to cause various problems. If you have
MSYS installed, try "make SHELL=cmd.exe" to force the use of cmd.exe
instead of sh.exe.
Emacs used to build only with msvc, nmake and cmd.exe. The problem
with this situation is that it is a non-Free set of tools. A lot of
effort was put in to make Emacs build with gcc. Bug reports quickly
came in that Emacs didn't build with Cygwin bash as the shell, so this
was fixed. Now we have people complaining that it doesn't build with
MSYS as the shell, despite the INSTALL file warning against that. It
is clear that people will use whatever tools and shells they want to,
and we must do our best to make them work and document it. While
singling out one toolset to document might make things easier for
newcomers, it will also offend a large number of zealots who prefer
some other toolset.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 18:59 ` Jason Rumney
@ 2006-03-18 19:11 ` Chong Yidong
2006-03-18 22:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2006-03-18 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel, Kim F. Storm
Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:
> from nt/INSTALL:
>
> MSYS sh.exe also appears to cause various problems. If you have
> MSYS installed, try "make SHELL=cmd.exe" to force the use of cmd.exe
> instead of sh.exe.
>
> Emacs used to build only with msvc, nmake and cmd.exe. The problem
> with this situation is that it is a non-Free set of tools. A lot of
> effort was put in to make Emacs build with gcc. Bug reports quickly
> came in that Emacs didn't build with Cygwin bash as the shell, so this
> was fixed. Now we have people complaining that it doesn't build with
> MSYS as the shell, despite the INSTALL file warning against that.
That's the nature of progress.
This is somewhat off-topic, but a long time ago, I posted on
gnu.emacs.help that a small tweak to a Makefile allows Emacs to
compile with the version of make that comes with MingW/MSYS, even in
the MSYS shell:
I get an error when compiling Emacs 21.3 on Windows 2000, using
Mingw's gcc.exe and mingw32-make.exe (renamed to make.exe):
"./../bin/emacs.exe" -batch --no-init-file --no-site-file --multibyte
-l autoload \
--eval "(setq find-file-hook nil \
find-file-suppress-same-file-warnings t \
generated-autoload-file \
\"C:/home/emacs/lisp/loaddefs.el\")" \
-f batch-update-autoloads "C:/home/emacs/lisp"
Wrote c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home.macslisploaddefs.el
Loading vc-cvs (source)...
Wrote c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home?macslisploaddefs.el
Autoloads file c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home.macslisploaddefs.el does
not exist
make: *** [all] Error -1
The problem seems to be that either emacs.exe or cmd (the Windows
command shell) munges the ":" character, even when it is enclosed by
quotation marks. If I edit the Makefile by hand to eliminate the
colon, i.e.,
\"./loaddefs.el\")" \
then the compilation succeeds.
> It is clear that people will use whatever tools and shells they want
> to, and we must do our best to make them work and document it. While
> singling out one toolset to document might make things easier for
> newcomers, it will also offend a large number of zealots who prefer
> some other toolset.
We can probably live with a bit of offense.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 19:11 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2006-03-18 22:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: storm, emacs-devel, jasonr
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, "Kim F. Storm" <storm@cua.dk>,
> emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:11:48 -0500
>
> This is somewhat off-topic, but a long time ago, I posted on
> gnu.emacs.help that a small tweak to a Makefile allows Emacs to
> compile with the version of make that comes with MingW/MSYS, even in
> the MSYS shell:
>
> I get an error when compiling Emacs 21.3 on Windows 2000, using
> Mingw's gcc.exe and mingw32-make.exe (renamed to make.exe):
>
> "./../bin/emacs.exe" -batch --no-init-file --no-site-file --multibyte
> -l autoload \
> --eval "(setq find-file-hook nil \
> find-file-suppress-same-file-warnings t \
> generated-autoload-file \
> \"C:/home/emacs/lisp/loaddefs.el\")" \
> -f batch-update-autoloads "C:/home/emacs/lisp"
> Wrote c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home.macslisploaddefs.el
> Loading vc-cvs (source)...
> Wrote c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home?macslisploaddefs.el
> Autoloads file c:/home/emacs/lisp/C;c:home.macslisploaddefs.el does
> not exist
> make: *** [all] Error -1
>
> The problem seems to be that either emacs.exe or cmd (the Windows
> command shell) munges the ":" character, even when it is enclosed by
> quotation marks. If I edit the Makefile by hand to eliminate the
> colon, i.e.,
>
> \"./loaddefs.el\")" \
>
> then the compilation succeeds.
This complaint came in a few more times from other users of MSYS.
Further enquiry uncovered the reason: the MSYS runtime would munge
strings which start with "C:" (or "D:" or "E:" etc.) if these were not
the first two characters of a string. That is, "C:/foo something"
would be left alone, but "(setq foo \"C:/foo\")" would be munged.
You will see that in current CVS, lisp/makefile.w32-in avoids
triggering this MSYS bug, albeit in a way that is different from what
you suggested (because what you suggested would break a build outside
the source tree).
So obviously, once the problems are understood, we do try to solve
them, even if they are due to what I firmly believe to be an MSYS
misfeature.
> > It is clear that people will use whatever tools and shells they want
> > to, and we must do our best to make them work and document it. While
> > singling out one toolset to document might make things easier for
> > newcomers, it will also offend a large number of zealots who prefer
> > some other toolset.
>
> We can probably live with a bit of offense.
I don't think a request to have simpler instructions is a good reason
to stop catering to a significant portion of users.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 17:14 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 17:15 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2006-03-19 0:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2006-03-19 0:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
>> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 15:49:09 +0100
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> Would someone like to work on a simple, step-by-step
>> guide for building this
>
> I now added to nt/INSTALL a short section with concise instructions
> for the impatient.
Excellent!
> I don't think it would have solved your problems,
> since what I added still assumes a working development environment,
> which you didn't have.
Right.
> Please take a look and give any critique you have.
>> using ONE tool-kit (e.g. MinGW), tell _exactly_ where to find the
>> right versions of those tools, libaries, etc. it would be nice.
>
> I don't think we can single out only one toolkit. We cannot dictate
> people what compiler and development tools to use, as they might have
> goals other than just building Emacs.
Sure. But I still think it would be good to show how to setup at
least one such environment -- also for the benefit of having an
environment which works _with_ emacs once it is running (e.g. having
"compatible" diff, grep, and find programs.)
> Lennart's site (cited in nt/INSTALL) has detailed instructions on
> where to find auxiliary tools and libraries that are not part of the
> development environment (i.e. compiler, linker, etc.).
That is good. Perhaps we could move that link to the place where
you specify that "you need a working development environment".
> If people who routinely build Emacs would list here where they get the
> basic and auxiliary tools and libraries, I might find time to add a
> list to nt/INSTALL that would summarize everybody's experience and
> suggestions.
That would be good.
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2006-03-18 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 16:27 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 16:29 ` Eric Hanchrow
6 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eric Hanchrow @ 2006-03-18 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
>>>>> "Kim" == Kim F Storm <storm@cua.dk> writes:
Kim> I tried to look at nt/INSTALL, and rather than giving ONE
Kim> CLEAR way to build it, it gives an utterly complex mix of
Kim> basic CMD.COM, Cygwin, and MinGW stuff that may work in
Kim> various combinations.
Amen, brother. I've managed to find a reliable method of building
(which, annoyingly, is slightly different than the one or two that
others have posted), but I agree: the documentation is awful. I've
never understood how anyone can get a Win32 build without pain.
--
This movie doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't
the bottom of the barrel. This movie isn't below the bottom of the
barrel. This movie doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same
sentence with barrels.
Roger Ebert on "Freddy Got Fingered"
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:27 ` Eric Hanchrow
@ 2006-03-18 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net>
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:27:32 -0800
>
> Amen, brother. I've managed to find a reliable method of building
> (which, annoyingly, is slightly different than the one or two that
> others have posted), but I agree: the documentation is awful.
Well, then maybe I'm unfit to even try to improve it. If all I can do
is produce an AWFUL documentation, let others come and do it better.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-17 14:49 ` Kim F. Storm
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2006-03-18 16:27 ` Eric Hanchrow
@ 2006-03-18 16:29 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 19:04 ` Jason Rumney
6 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eric Hanchrow @ 2006-03-18 16:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
Also, just to commiserate: I've got descriptions of my building-emacs
struggles on
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/BuildingOnWindowsTableofContents.
That lists eight separate strategies that I've tried.
--
Raffarin said he wants to see secure Internet voting in France
by 2009, and he said if he had a homosexual son, he would love
him ...
-- from the Chicago Tribune
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:29 ` Eric Hanchrow
@ 2006-03-18 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2006-03-18 19:04 ` Jason Rumney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-03-18 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net>
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:29:58 -0800
>
> Also, just to commiserate: I've got descriptions of my building-emacs
> struggles on
> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/BuildingOnWindowsTableofContents.
> That lists eight separate strategies that I've tried.
After reading this, I can summarize the W32 build parts of it thusly:
- It doesn't work to build CVS with Cygwin.
- MSVC wasn't tried, since you assumed that it will build okay
(given that v21.x does).
- For the MinGW build, the only additional info is what image
libraries are needed and what headers files for this libraries are
required and where to get them. This same info appears on
Lennart's site. (I think this information will be redundant once
the bugs in the ported image libraries are fixed, but for now it
is required.)
Is this all your site adds to what nt/INSTALL has, or did I miss
something?
P.S. I didn't look in the Cygwin build parts, since the Cygwin port is
not supported by the nt/ stuff. The Cygwin port is built as if we
were on Unix, so it uses the normal Emacs configury, and therefore
people who build with Cygwin should read the general INSTALL file, not
nt/INSTALL.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread* Re: W32 version crashes on C-g
2006-03-18 16:29 ` Eric Hanchrow
2006-03-18 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2006-03-18 19:04 ` Jason Rumney
1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2006-03-18 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net> writes:
> Also, just to commiserate: I've got descriptions of my building-emacs
> struggles on
> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/BuildingOnWindowsTableofContents.That lists eight separate strategies that I've tried.
8? I see three methods for building native Windows Emacs binaries
there.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread