From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: describe-bindings: ^L, bad order, naming Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:02:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <89DEE8B2-EA6A-4347-A9AB-D1B99C58E725@gmail.com> <7150D5AA-9F07-4479-8173-E10251372C7F@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1131709755 1318 80.91.229.2 (11 Nov 2005 11:49:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:49:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 11 12:49:05 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaXOP-00055r-11 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:48:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaXOO-0003VX-Hv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:48:28 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EaWHN-0001qb-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:37:09 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EaWCz-0000P6-Og for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:32:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaVjm-0007TX-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:02:29 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.114.186.20] (helo=nitzan.inter.net.il) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EaVjl-0005hi-B1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:02:25 -0500 Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 (IGLD-80-230-52-187.inter.net.il [80.230.52.187]) by nitzan.inter.net.il (MOS 3.6.5-GR) with ESMTP id BXU28297 (AUTH halo1); Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:02:23 +0200 (IST) Original-To: David Reitter In-reply-to: <7150D5AA-9F07-4479-8173-E10251372C7F@gmail.com> (message from David Reitter on Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:33:06 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:45745 Archived-At: > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Reitter > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:33:06 +0000 > > > We could use overlays to display the ^L as something more visually > > appealing, while leaving ^L in the buffer. > > Sounds like a complicated solution to me. It isn't complicated. > But if that's the only way... I don't know if that's the only way, that's the first way I could think of. Others might have other, perhaps better, ideas. > > We could modify the help echo string to mention "shortcuts". I don't > > think the name of the menu item itself should change, since this is > > Emacs terminology, and newbies need to learn it as fast as possible. > > Unless newbies are successful at finding what they want (help on > functions assigned to keys), there is no learning effect. They will > just skip over "Key Bindings" if they don't know what a binding is. > > And sorry, the echo area is not enough. > > 1. It is not displayed on my system when going through the menus. Did you turn the tooltips off? If not, perhaps there's some bug? > 2. the echo area is far away from the menus (visually), and I > wouldn't be used to check it anyways when going through menus. Menu > strings have to be self explanatory. First, the default is to display the help text in a tooltip, not in the echo area. Second, the area near the bottom of the display is where other GUI applications display longer descriptions of the menu items. So I think users do know to look there' even if tooltips are somehow disabled. > I think a useful compromise would be "Keyboard Commands". I don't > think that this is inconsistent with Emacs terminology. IMHO, it _is_ inconsistent. And in addition, it is not mentioned anywhere in the docs where a newbie might look for basic terminology. It's not in Glossary, for example. > > Could you please drop this signature stuff? It's very long and thus > > annoying. TIA. > > It's an attachment and shouldn't be displayed on your screen. > Most mail readers will display "signed". Rmail does display it. I don't mind short signatures, but this one is annoyingly long.