Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Pascal Bourguignon]

William Case <billlinux@rogers.com> writes:

> Hi;
>
> Is there a way to click on the mini-buffer or use a shortcut key so that
> my cursor is placed in the mini-buffer before I begin to type a command?

M-x

For example:

M-x find-file RET /tmp/test RET


> I know, I know.  There is no need.  I can just start to type my command
> and it will automatically appear in the mini-buffer.  This has to do
> with my own uncorrectable bad habit, not necessity.
>
> The mini-buffer looks and feels like a command line.  I have the habit
> of wanting to click on it before typing a command.  If I am not paying
> attention to my actions, but rather thinking about something one the
> screen, I keep clicking and clicking.  Of course, nothing happens. 

You can also use M-:

For example:

M-: (find-file "/tmp/test") RET


> After 2 1/2 years of not being able to kick the habit, is there a way I
> can set up my emacs to show a blinking cursor in the mini-buffer and be
> done with it?

It's easy.  Just take a pair of scisors, and cut the cable of your mouse.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
I need a new toy.
Tail of black dog keeps good time.
Pounce! Good dog! Good dog!

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Mathias Dahl]

Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:

>> Is there a way to click on the mini-buffer or use a shortcut key so that
>> my cursor is placed in the mini-buffer before I begin to type a command?
>
> M-x
>
> For example:
>
> M-x find-file RET /tmp/test RET

I wonder if that is really what the parent poster meant. Look at what
he writes:

> I know, I know.  There is no need.  I can just start to type my
> command and it will automatically appear in the mini-buffer.  This
> has to do with my own uncorrectable bad habit, not necessity.

That sentence, "I can just start to type my command and it will
automatically appear in the mini-buffer." confuses me. I mean, he just
can't do that, he has to type M-x first. Is he maybe using Viper mode?
It will be interesting to see what he really meant, when he hopefully
reports back here. :)

/Mathias

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 10:33 +0100, Mathias Dahl wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:
> 
> >> Is there a way to click on the mini-buffer or use a shortcut key so that
> >> my cursor is placed in the mini-buffer before I begin to type a command?
> >
> > M-x
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > M-x find-file RET /tmp/test RET
> 
> I wonder if that is really what the parent poster meant. Look at what
> he writes:
> 
> > I know, I know.  There is no need.  I can just start to type my
> > command and it will automatically appear in the mini-buffer.  This
> > has to do with my own uncorrectable bad habit, not necessity.
> 
> That sentence, "I can just start to type my command and it will
> automatically appear in the mini-buffer." confuses me. I mean, he just
> can't do that, he has to type M-x first. Is he maybe using Viper mode?
> It will be interesting to see what he really meant, when he hopefully
> reports back here. :)

> /Mathias

Mathias, I was trying to skip using many words to say a simple thing.
Perhaps the paragraph should have read "I know, I know.  There is no
need. As long as emacs has the focus I can just start to type M-x or C-X
C-F etc. and my command will automatically appear in the mini-buffer."

And in any case, Pascal got my meaning.  His mouse solution bears some
consideration, but then my fingers would be trying to find some way to
put the cursor in the mini-buffer before typing M-x or whatever.  The
problem as stated is half tongue-in-cheek, half a self-tease and half a
real annoyance.

-- 
Regards Bill

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Mathias Dahl]

William Case <billlinux@rogers.com> writes:

> Mathias, I was trying to skip using many words to say a simple
> thing.  Perhaps the paragraph should have read "I know, I know.
> There is no need. As long as emacs has the focus I can just start to
> type M-x or C-X C-F etc. and my command will automatically appear in
> the mini-buffer."

So, what you want is to be able to click in the echo area (the area
below the mode line) to get the "M-x prompt" (without needing to type
M-x), is it?

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

Hi Mathias;


On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 16:05 +0100, Mathias Dahl wrote:
> William Case <billlinux@rogers.com> writes:
> 
> > Mathias, I was trying to skip using many words to say a simple
> > thing.  Perhaps the paragraph should have read "I know, I know.
> > There is no need. As long as emacs has the focus I can just start to
> > type M-x or C-X C-F etc. and my command will automatically appear in
> > the mini-buffer."
> 
> So, what you want is to be able to click in the echo area (the area
> below the mode line) to get the "M-x prompt" (without needing to type
> M-x), is it?

Essentially, yes.  But I have always thought what you have called the
echo area was the mini-buffer in emacs and I don't even need the "M-x
prompt".  I just want my cursor blinking in the very first field/column
of the echo area.  I will type the command or accelerator keys that I
need after the cursor is placed.  I would expect that the cursor would
remain at the end of the command line until I push Enter.

If you open a virtual terminal and type a couple of shell commands, you
can see what I mean.

I want to reconfirm, I am not advocating that others may want this or
that it is something emacs should automatically do.  In fact, it is a
waste of time and clicks and/or keystrokes.  However, intuitively, as in
a command line on a terminal, I like to see that I have moved on to the
next command by seeing the cursor at the beginning of a cleared command
line (the command-to-be, so to speak), that I have a second or two to
think about what exactly I am going to type next; and what I type next
will be a command of some sort.

It is a habit that comes from 30 years of being a computer user.

-- 
Regards Bill

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 01.11.2006 um 17:38 schrieb William Case:

> I want to reconfirm, I am not advocating that others may want this or
> that it is something emacs should automatically do.

How long were you using DM (or is it PM?) in Aegis from Apollo  
Domain? Probably this one built up your bad habit (decades ago?).

I'd like to suggest to use eshell in perhaps an extra frame, which  
then can be as small as one line, I think, without tool-bar, without  
scroll-bar, possibly some hook or eshell init file can switch off all  
this decoration. It will give you access to a lot of Emacs Lisp  
functions (or even all?) – and a UNIX shell with all the typical UNIX  
tools!


The mini-buffer is kind of a process that needs to get launched every  
time in order to accept some input. The launcher is M-x. IMO eshell  
can be such an always-on mini-buffer (substitute) ...

--
Greetings

   Pete
                       ~  o
                        ~_\\_/\
                       ~  O   O

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Kevin Rodgers]

William Case wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 16:05 +0100, Mathias Dahl wrote:
>> So, what you want is to be able to click in the echo area (the area
>> below the mode line) to get the "M-x prompt" (without needing to type
>> M-x), is it?
> 
> Essentially, yes.  But I have always thought what you have called the
> echo area was the mini-buffer in emacs and I don't even need the "M-x
> prompt".  I just want my cursor blinking in the very first field/column
> of the echo area.  I will type the command or accelerator keys that I
> need after the cursor is placed.  I would expect that the cursor would
> remain at the end of the command line until I push Enter.

The echo area and the minibuffer share that real estate on the screen
(as is explained in both the Echo Area and Minibuffer sections of the
manual :-)

Perhaps what you want can be provided via a minibuffer-only frame?

> If you open a virtual terminal and type a couple of shell commands, you
> can see what I mean.
> 
> I want to reconfirm, I am not advocating that others may want this or
> that it is something emacs should automatically do.  In fact, it is a
> waste of time and clicks and/or keystrokes.  However, intuitively, as in
> a command line on a terminal, I like to see that I have moved on to the
> next command by seeing the cursor at the beginning of a cleared command
> line (the command-to-be, so to speak), that I have a second or two to
> think about what exactly I am going to type next; and what I type next
> will be a command of some sort.
> 
> It is a habit that comes from 30 years of being a computer user.

My habits come from 23 years of being an Emacs user :-)

-- 
Kevin

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

Thanks Kevin;

On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 13:17 -0700, Kevin Rodgers wrote:
> William Case wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 16:05 +0100, Mathias Dahl wrote:
> >> So, what you want is to be able to click in the echo area (the area
> >> below the mode line) to get the "M-x prompt" (without needing to type
> >> M-x), is it?
> > 
> > Essentially, yes.  But I have always thought what you have called the
> > echo area was the mini-buffer in emacs and I don't even need the "M-x
> > prompt".  I just want my cursor blinking in the very first field/column
> > of the echo area.  I will type the command or accelerator keys that I
> > need after the cursor is placed.  I would expect that the cursor would
> > remain at the end of the command line until I push Enter.
> 
> The echo area and the minibuffer share that real estate on the screen
> (as is explained in both the Echo Area and Minibuffer sections of the
> manual :-)
> 

Re-read the manual (hadn't read it in 2 years -- if then) regarding echo
area and mini-buffer.  This thread WAS written about the mini-buffer.

To quote the manual "   The "minibuffer" is the facility used by Emacs
commands to read arguments more complicated than a single number.
Minibuffer arguments can be file names, buffer names, Lisp function
names, Emacs command names, Lisp expressions, and many other things,
depending on the command reading the argument.  You can use the usual
Emacs editing commands in the minibuffer to edit the argument text.

   When the minibuffer is in use, it appears in the echo area, and the
terminal's cursor moves there.  The beginning of the minibuffer line
displays a "prompt" which says what kind of input you should supply and
how it will be used.  Often this prompt is derived from the name of the
command that the argument is for.  The prompt normally ends with a
colon."

What I am talking about is that a user has to type a command, or the
beginning of a command, to get the cursor to appear.  I just want the
echo area to turn into a mini-buffer when I click on it and the cursor
to appear in the mini-buffer in first column after the prompt.  I want
everything else to remain the same.

I really do appreciate people taking the time to respond, but it seems
the suggested answers are getting more complex than the original
problem.  I have no intention of giving up emacs because of one 'habit'.

-- 
Regards Bill

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Kevin Rodgers]

William Case wrote:
> I really do appreciate people taking the time to respond, but it seems
> the suggested answers are getting more complex than the original
> problem.  I have no intention of giving up emacs because of one 'habit'.

Does that include my suggestion to use a minibuffer-only frame?  I don't
use such a setup, so I don't know how complicated it is to configure it,
nor whether it meets your needs.  But I suspect it's worth a try.

-- 
Kevin

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

A P.S. Kevin

On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 13:17 -0700, Kevin Rodgers wrote:
> William Case wrote:
> > 
> > It is a habit that comes from 30 years of being a computer user.
> 
> My habits come from 23 years of being an Emacs user :-)
> 

My comment was meant to indicate how ingrained my conditioned response
(habit) is.  It no way was meant to imply any authority over how emacs
should work.  I have only been using emacs on an occasional basis for
two years.  My prior computer experience was always as a users user,
typing reports and business plans in word processors and spreadsheets in
fields completely divorced from IT.  Your 23 years certainly trumps my
very few Linux years.  (I would type a smiley here except I have sworn a
dire oath against the use of smileys.)

-- 
Regards Bill

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[David Kastrup]

William Case <billlinux@rogers.com> writes:

> On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 16:05 +0100, Mathias Dahl wrote:
>
>> So, what you want is to be able to click in the echo area (the area
>> below the mode line) to get the "M-x prompt" (without needing to type
>> M-x), is it?
>
> Essentially, yes.  But I have always thought what you have called
> the echo area was the mini-buffer in emacs and I don't even need the
> "M-x prompt".  I just want my cursor blinking in the very first
> field/column of the echo area.  I will type the command or
> accelerator keys that I need after the cursor is placed.  I would
> expect that the cursor would remain at the end of the command line
> until I push Enter.
>
> If you open a virtual terminal and type a couple of shell commands, you
> can see what I mean.
>
> I want to reconfirm, I am not advocating that others may want this
> or that it is something emacs should automatically do.  In fact, it
> is a waste of time and clicks and/or keystrokes.  However,
> intuitively, as in a command line on a terminal, I like to see that
> I have moved on to the next command by seeing the cursor at the
> beginning of a cleared command line (the command-to-be, so to
> speak), that I have a second or two to think about what exactly I am
> going to type next; and what I type next will be a command of some
> sort.
>
> It is a habit that comes from 30 years of being a computer user.

I suggest you stay with ed or ex.  A vim-based ex might come close to
your expectations of what an editor is supposed to do.

Most other people nowadays have gotten used to visual rather than
command-line centric editors.

If that is different with you, there is no point in picking an editor
that works with different user interface principles.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Mathias Dahl]

William Case <billlinux@rogers.com> writes:

> Essentially, yes.  But I have always thought what you have called
> the echo area was the mini-buffer in emacs and I don't even need the
> "M-x prompt".  I just want my cursor blinking in the very first
> field/column of the echo area.  I will type the command or
> accelerator keys that I need after the cursor is placed.  I would
> expect that the cursor would remain at the end of the command line
> until I push Enter.

It's interesting to learn how other wants to use this wonderful tool!

How about this then:

 $ emacs -Q
 C-x 2 ; split in two windows
 C-x 0 ; move to bottom window
 M-x eshell RET ; start eshell

Now, resize the window containing the eshell buffer so that it's only
a few lines high (three lines seems to be the minimum before the
windows is deleted).

Now you have something similar to what you want in that you can type
all commands, including their arguments. For example, at the eshell
prompt:

 $ find-file foo RET

Will open up the file foo, or create an empty buffer. Voila!

The only problem with this approach is that commands that display a
prompt when called interactively will not work like you expect. For
example, only typing `find-file' and RET will not work. It will
complain about missing arguments (because it is called
non-interactively behind the scenes).

Of course, eshell is also a complete shell, being able to call emacs
functions is just an extra feature that is really nice.

RE: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Drew Adams]

FYI -

I've added something similar to what Martin suggested previously to library
mouse+.el: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/mouse%2b.el. The doc is
here: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/MousePlus.

Because Emacs 22 shows buffer *Messages* when you click mouse-1 in the echo
area (which can useful or annoying!), and mouse-2 does nothing in the echo
area except show this message: "Minibuffer window is not active", I bind the
mouse M-x command to `down-mouse-2', not to `down-mouse-1'.

The command, `mouse-flash-position-or-M-x', keeps the original buffer and
window current while `M-x' is executed, and it uses whatever command you
have bound to `M-x' (in my case, `icicle-execute-extended-command').

`mouse-flash-position-or-M-x' is a general replacement for
`mouse-yank-at-click'. More precisely, you bind it to `down-mouse-2',
leaving `mouse-yank-at-click' bound to `mouse-2'.

`mouse-flash-position-or-M-x' has another feature, which is unrelated to the
echo-area use described above: It temporarily highlights the exact mouse
position, so you can correct your aim or cancel clicking (e.g. yanking) if
you haven't aimed well. This highlighting occurs regardless of which command
is bound to `mouse-2' (the up stroke), so, for instance, it works in Dired
also (where `mouse-2' is bound to `dired-mouse-find-file-other-window'). Its
main utility, however, is for yanking.

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Mathias Dahl]

martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> writes:

>> The only drawback I can see with it
>> is that it removes the "pop up the message buffer" function.
>
> (defun mouse-drag-region (start-event)
>   "Set the region to the text that the mouse is dragged over.
> Highlight the drag area as you move the mouse.
> This must be bound to a button-down mouse event.
> In Transient Mark mode, the highlighting remains as long as the mark
> remains active.  Otherwise, it remains until the next input event.
>
> If the click is in the echo area, pop up the messages buffer and
> run a command."
>   (interactive "e")
>   (let ((w (posn-window (event-start start-event))))
>     (if (and (window-minibuffer-p w)
> 	     (not (minibuffer-window-active-p w)))
> 	(save-excursion
> 	  ;; Swallow the up-event.
> 	  (read-event)
> 	  (set-buffer (get-buffer-create "*Messages*"))
> 	  (goto-char (point-max))
> 	  (display-buffer (current-buffer))
> 	  (call-interactively 'execute-extended-command))
>       ;; Give temporary modes such as isearch a chance to turn off.
>       (run-hooks 'mouse-leave-buffer-hook)
>       (mouse-drag-track start-event t))))

Hehe! I don't like that "feature" though... :)

RE: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Drew Adams]

     Hehe! I don't like that "feature" [mouse-1 in minibuffer brings
     up *Messages*) though... :)

FWIW, neither do I.

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[martin rudalics]

 > The only drawback I can see with it
 > is that it removes the "pop up the message buffer" function.

(defun mouse-drag-region (start-event)
   "Set the region to the text that the mouse is dragged over.
Highlight the drag area as you move the mouse.
This must be bound to a button-down mouse event.
In Transient Mark mode, the highlighting remains as long as the mark
remains active.  Otherwise, it remains until the next input event.

If the click is in the echo area, pop up the messages buffer and
run a command."
   (interactive "e")
   (let ((w (posn-window (event-start start-event))))
     (if (and (window-minibuffer-p w)
	     (not (minibuffer-window-active-p w)))
	(save-excursion
	  ;; Swallow the up-event.
	  (read-event)
	  (set-buffer (get-buffer-create "*Messages*"))
	  (goto-char (point-max))
	  (display-buffer (current-buffer))
	  (call-interactively 'execute-extended-command))
       ;; Give temporary modes such as isearch a chance to turn off.
       (run-hooks 'mouse-leave-buffer-hook)
       (mouse-drag-track start-event t))))

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[Mathias Dahl]

martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> writes:

> You probably want something like the below.  Replace
> `execute-extended-command' by whatever you need.
>
> (defun mouse-drag-region (start-event)
>   "Set the region to the text that the mouse is dragged over.
> Highlight the drag area as you move the mouse.
> This must be bound to a button-down mouse event.
> In Transient Mark mode, the highlighting remains as long as the mark
> remains active.  Otherwise, it remains until the next input event.
>
> If the click is in the echo area, run a command."
>   (interactive "e")
>   (let ((w (posn-window (event-start start-event))))
>     (if (and (window-minibuffer-p w)
> 	     (not (minibuffer-window-active-p w)))
> 	(save-excursion
> 	  ;; Swallow the up-event.
> 	  (read-event)
> 	  (call-interactively 'execute-extended-command))
>       ;; Give temporary modes such as isearch a chance to turn off.
>       (run-hooks 'mouse-leave-buffer-hook)
>       (mouse-drag-track start-event t))))

Hey, that's actually quite neat!  The only drawback I can see with it
is that it removes the "pop up the message buffer" function.

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[martin rudalics]

You probably want something like the below.  Replace
`execute-extended-command' by whatever you need.

(defun mouse-drag-region (start-event)
   "Set the region to the text that the mouse is dragged over.
Highlight the drag area as you move the mouse.
This must be bound to a button-down mouse event.
In Transient Mark mode, the highlighting remains as long as the mark
remains active.  Otherwise, it remains until the next input event.

If the click is in the echo area, run a command."
   (interactive "e")
   (let ((w (posn-window (event-start start-event))))
     (if (and (window-minibuffer-p w)
	     (not (minibuffer-window-active-p w)))
	(save-excursion
	  ;; Swallow the up-event.
	  (read-event)
	  (call-interactively 'execute-extended-command))
       ;; Give temporary modes such as isearch a chance to turn off.
       (run-hooks 'mouse-leave-buffer-hook)
       (mouse-drag-track start-event t))))

Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

Hi;

Is there a way to click on the mini-buffer or use a shortcut key so that
my cursor is placed in the mini-buffer before I begin to type a command?

I know, I know.  There is no need.  I can just start to type my command
and it will automatically appear in the mini-buffer.  This has to do
with my own uncorrectable bad habit, not necessity.

The mini-buffer looks and feels like a command line.  I have the habit
of wanting to click on it before typing a command.  If I am not paying
attention to my actions, but rather thinking about something one the
screen, I keep clicking and clicking.  Of course, nothing happens. 

After 2 1/2 years of not being able to kick the habit, is there a way I
can set up my emacs to show a blinking cursor in the mini-buffer and be
done with it?

-- 
Regards Bill

Re: Need an enabler for a bad habit.

[William Case]

Thanks especially to Martin, Kevin and Drew;

On Tue, 2006-31-10 at 11:59 -0500, William Case wrote:
> Hi;

> The mini-buffer looks and feels like a command line.  I have the habit
> of wanting to click on it before typing a command.  If I am not paying
> attention to my actions, but rather thinking about something on the
> screen, I keep clicking and clicking.  Of course, nothing happens. 
> 
> After 2 1/2 years of not being able to kick the habit, is there a way I
> can set up my emacs to show a blinking cursor in the mini-buffer and be
> done with it?
> 
I am going to try your suggested setups over the next week.  First I
want to download and install Fedora Core 6.  I'll let the list know how
the habit fix works. 


-- 
Regards Bill