* header-line and mode-line faces
@ 2008-06-13 20:10 Drew Adams
2008-06-13 21:58 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-14 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-13 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Here is the default definition of face `header-line':
Attributes: [ ] Font Family: *
[ ] Width: *
[ ] Height: *
[ ] Weight: *
[ ] Slant: *
[ ] Underline: *
[ ] Overline: *
[ ] Strike-through: *
[ ] Box around text: *
[ ] Inverse-video: *
[ ] Foreground: *
[ ] Background: *
[ ] Stipple: *
[X] Inherit:
INS DEL Face: (sample) mode-line
INS
Overriding
Attributes: [ ] Font Family: *
[ ] Width: *
[ ] Height: *
[ ] Weight: *
[ ] Slant: *
[ ] Underline: *
[ ] Overline: *
[ ] Strike-through: *
[X] Box around text: Value Menu Off
[ ] Inverse-video: *
[X] Foreground: grey20 (sample)
[X] Background: grey90 (sample)
[ ] Stipple: *
[ ] Inherit: *
I don't think that is a good idea. The default value should just inherit from
face `mode-line'. Users should be able to customize face `mode-line' and have
face `header-line' follow suite. At least the foreground and background should
simply be inherited - see next wrt boxing.
I also think the default for face `mode-line' should not be boxed (and therefore
no reason for `header-line' to override this), but that is a different issue. (I
have the feeling that the boxed mode line came into being just because boxing
became a new possibility.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-13 20:10 header-line and mode-line faces Drew Adams
@ 2008-06-13 21:58 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-13 22:08 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-13 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> I also think the default for face `mode-line' should not be boxed (and therefore
> no reason for `header-line' to override this), but that is a different issue. (I
> have the feeling that the boxed mode line came into being just because boxing
> became a new possibility.)
I think the mode-line is boxed because many people like that appearance.
-Miles
--
Erudition, n. Dust shaken out of a book into an empty skull.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* RE: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-13 21:58 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-13 22:08 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-13 22:15 ` Miles Bader
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-13 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Miles Bader'; +Cc: emacs-devel
> > I also think the default for face `mode-line' should not be
> > boxed (and therefore no reason for `header-line' to override
> > this), but that is a different issue. (I have the feeling
> > that the boxed mode line came into being just because boxing
> > became a new possibility.)
>
> I think the mode-line is boxed because many people like that
> appearance.
OK, not a biggee. The other point is more important.
(I assume you mean "most". If just "many", that's what customization is for.
Many people like dark backgrounds, but that isn't the default.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-13 20:10 header-line and mode-line faces Drew Adams
2008-06-13 21:58 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-14 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-14 16:46 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-14 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:10:49 -0700
>
> I don't think that is a good idea. The default value should just inherit from
> face `mode-line'.
I don't see why. Please explain more.
> Users should be able to customize face `mode-line' and have face
> `header-line' follow suite.
Why? they are different faces used for different portions of display.
They should be different by default so people could easily tell one
from the other.
> I have the feeling that the boxed mode line came into being just
> because boxing became a new possibility.
Actually, it was the other way around: boxing was added because the
idea of having the mode line with this appearance seemed cool.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* RE: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-14 16:46 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-14 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-14 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: emacs-devel
> > I don't think that is a good idea. The default value should
> > just inherit from face `mode-line'.
> I don't see why. Please explain more.
Uh, so you can customize just the mode-line face and have the header-line face
reflect the change.
> > Users should be able to customize face `mode-line' and have face
> > `header-line' follow suite.
>
> Why? they are different faces used for different portions of display.
> They should be different by default so people could easily tell one
> from the other.
They are different faces, and you can also customize them separately.
But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
Inheritance provides convenience - these two faces are different, and have
different uses, but they have similarities. It's about convenience. Inheritance
by default never prevents anyone from customizing them separately.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 16:46 ` Drew Adams
@ 2008-06-14 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-14 18:23 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-06-14 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii', emacs-devel
> They are different faces, and you can also customize them separately.
> But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
So that it can share some of its attributes. E.g. if you change the
font-family or the size of the mode-line it'll change the corresponding
attribute of the header-line as well.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* RE: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2008-06-14 18:23 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 18:36 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-14 19:02 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-14 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Stefan Monnier'; +Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii', emacs-devel
> > They are different faces, and you can also customize them
> > separately. But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
>
> So that it can share some of its attributes. E.g. if you change the
> font-family or the size of the mode-line it'll change the
> corresponding attribute of the header-line as well.
Exactly.
I am suggesting that, by default, it share all of its attributes. That's all.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 18:23 ` Drew Adams
@ 2008-06-14 18:36 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-14 19:02 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2008-06-14 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii', 'Stefan Monnier', emacs-devel
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> So that it can share some of its attributes. E.g. if you change the
>> font-family or the size of the mode-line it'll change the
>> corresponding attribute of the header-line as well.
>
> I am suggesting that, by default, it share all of its attributes. That's all.
That's a bad idea; it's desirable that they be distinguishable.
-Miles
--
Year, n. A period of three hundred and sixty-five disappointments.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 18:23 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 18:36 ` Miles Bader
@ 2008-06-14 19:02 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2008-06-14 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii', emacs-devel
>> > They are different faces, and you can also customize them
>> > separately. But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
>>
>> So that it can share some of its attributes. E.g. if you change the
>> font-family or the size of the mode-line it'll change the
>> corresponding attribute of the header-line as well.
> Exactly.
> I am suggesting that, by default, it share all of its attributes. That's all.
Yes, we got your point. We just don't agree.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 16:46 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2008-06-14 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-14 20:44 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2008-06-14 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:46:50 -0700
>
> > > I don't think that is a good idea. The default value should
> > > just inherit from face `mode-line'.
>
> > I don't see why. Please explain more.
>
> Uh, so you can customize just the mode-line face and have the header-line face
> reflect the change.
This can be said about all the other faces as well. I hope you don't
argue that they should all be alike by default.
> > > Users should be able to customize face `mode-line' and have face
> > > `header-line' follow suite.
> >
> > Why? they are different faces used for different portions of display.
> > They should be different by default so people could easily tell one
> > from the other.
>
> They are different faces, and you can also customize them separately.
>
> But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
Because they are very similar. But the disagreement between us is not
about the inheritance, it's about identity. A face can inherit from
another and still be different in small ways.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* RE: header-line and mode-line faces
2008-06-14 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2008-06-14 20:44 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 21:40 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-14 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Eli Zaretskii'; +Cc: emacs-devel
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1698 bytes --]
> > They are different faces, and you can also customize them
> > separately.
> >
> > But header-line inherits from mode-line *today*. Why?
>
> Because they are very similar. But the disagreement between us is not
> about the inheritance, it's about identity. A face can inherit from
> another and still be different in small ways.
If "you can customize them separately", then they are not identical; they are
separate objects.
I don't feel strongly about this; I just thought it would be an improvement.
I especially think it would be better to use the same foreground and background
colors - I don't have much of an opinion about box. As I said from the
beginning:
> At least the foreground and background should simply be inherited
Given that the boxed mode-line distinguishes it from the unboxed header-line (it
is also distinguished by its location and text), why not inherit the colors,
just as we inherit the fonts?
Actually, I was really thinking of `mode-line-inactive': inherit the
`header-line' attributes from `mode-line-inactive'. I mistakenly thought it was
`mode-line', since that is the face that is inherited.
`mode-line-inactive' already uses the same colors as `header-line' (without
inheritance).
The only other attribute difference between `header-line' and
`mode-line-inactive', besided boxed, is this for `header-line': Weight: light. I
don't see the reason for that, and, frankly, I can't tell that it has any
effect, at least with emacs -Q: see screenshot. I have no problem with it; I
just don't see the point of it.
How about inheriting `header-line' from `mode-line-inactive', instead of
`mode-line'?
If you disagree, no problem - just a suggestion.
[-- Attachment #2: throw-header-line-mode-line.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 4392 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* header-line and mode-line faces
@ 2008-06-13 20:08 Drew Adams
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2008-06-13 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Here is the default definition of face `header-line':
Attributes: [ ] Font Family: *
[ ] Width: *
[ ] Height: *
[ ] Weight: *
[ ] Slant: *
[ ] Underline: *
[ ] Overline: *
[ ] Strike-through: *
[ ] Box around text: *
[ ] Inverse-video: *
[ ] Foreground: *
[ ] Background: *
[ ] Stipple: *
[X] Inherit:
INS DEL Face: (sample) mode-line
INS
Overriding
Attributes: [ ] Font Family: *
[ ] Width: *
[ ] Height: *
[ ] Weight: *
[ ] Slant: *
[ ] Underline: *
[ ] Overline: *
[ ] Strike-through: *
[X] Box around text: Value Menu Off
[ ] Inverse-video: *
[X] Foreground: grey20 (sample)
[X] Background: grey90 (sample)
[ ] Stipple: *
[ ] Inherit: *
I don't think that is a good idea. The default value should just inherit from
face `mode-line'. Users should be able to customize face `mode-line' and have
face `header-line' follow suite. At least the foreground and background should
simply be inherited - see next wrt boxing.
I also think the default for face `mode-line' should not be boxed (and therefore
no reason for `header-line' to override this), but that is a different issue. (I
have the feeling that the boxed mode line came into being just because boxing
became a new possibility.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-06-14 21:40 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-06-13 20:10 header-line and mode-line faces Drew Adams
2008-06-13 21:58 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-13 22:08 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-13 22:15 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-14 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-14 16:46 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 17:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-14 18:23 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 18:36 ` Miles Bader
2008-06-14 19:02 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-06-14 19:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-06-14 20:44 ` Drew Adams
2008-06-14 21:40 ` Stefan Monnier
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2008-06-13 20:08 Drew Adams
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