* [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary @ 2005-06-14 0:00 Miles Bader 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell 0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-06-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 771 bytes --] From: "Thomas Widmann" <thomas.widmann@harpercollins.co.uk> Subject: "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary Date: 13 Jun 2005 09:52:42 -0700 Message-ID: <1118681561.957194.160950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Hi there, it might interest people in this group that "emacs" is defined in the new edition of the Collins English Dictionary (7th edition). The dictionary gives the plural as "emacsen", and it is defined as follows: "a powerful computer program used for creating and editing text, functioning primarily through keyboard commands". /Thomas -- Thomas Widmann thomas.widmann@harpercollins.co.uk Lead Developer +44 (141) 306 3295 Collins Dictionaries Glasgow, UK [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --] _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 0:00 [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary Miles Bader @ 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier ` (2 more replies) 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell 1 sibling, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Mathias Dahl @ 2005-06-14 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: > it might interest people in this group that "emacs" is defined in > the new edition of the Collins English Dictionary (7th edition). > The dictionary gives the plural as "emacsen", and it is defined as > follows: "a powerful computer program used for creating and editing > text, functioning primarily through keyboard commands". [off-topic] I am a native Swedish-speaker and wonder about these plurals ending in -en. I have seen "emacsen" and "boxen", and to me they look "ugly" (not offence intended), cannot explain why. Does not sound right at all to me. Is there any "old" words that use this too or is this some modern "thing"? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl @ 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier 2005-06-14 13:40 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 13:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2005-06-14 13:35 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Nic Ferrier @ 2005-06-14 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Mathias Dahl <brakjoller@gmail.com> writes: > Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: > >> it might interest people in this group that "emacs" is defined in >> the new edition of the Collins English Dictionary (7th edition). >> The dictionary gives the plural as "emacsen", and it is defined as >> follows: "a powerful computer program used for creating and editing >> text, functioning primarily through keyboard commands". > > [off-topic] > > I am a native Swedish-speaker and wonder about these plurals ending in > -en. I have seen "emacsen" and "boxen", and to me they look "ugly" > (not offence intended), cannot explain why. Does not sound right at > all to me. Is there any "old" words that use this too or is this some > modern "thing"? Oxen, Children, Bretheren. See: http://www.snvt.hum.uva.nl/Taalunieversum/Web/SIBData/resources/grammar/010.htm Nic ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier @ 2005-06-14 13:40 ` Mathias Dahl 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Mathias Dahl @ 2005-06-14 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Nic Ferrier <nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk> writes: >> I am a native Swedish-speaker and wonder about these plurals ending in >> -en. I have seen "emacsen" and "boxen", and to me they look "ugly" >> (not offence intended), cannot explain why. Does not sound right at >> all to me. Is there any "old" words that use this too or is this some >> modern "thing"? > > Oxen, Children, Bretheren. Of course, thanks! Actually, I did not know about oxen. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier @ 2005-06-14 13:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2005-06-14 13:11 ` Juanma Barranquero 2005-06-14 13:35 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2005-06-14 13:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Is there any "old" words that use this too or is this some > modern "thing"? Oxen: (plural of ox) are cattle trained as draft animals. Often they are adult, castrated males. [etc.] -- /L/e/k/t/u ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 13:03 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2005-06-14 13:11 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2005-06-14 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Other words do still have the -en, though it is less identifiable as the plural form of a singular noun: children, brethren. There's a simplified explanation of the historical variation of English plural forms in: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990930 -- /L/e/k/t/u ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier 2005-06-14 13:03 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2005-06-14 13:35 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2005-06-14 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Is there any "old" words that use this too or is this some modern "thing"? ox -> oxen, and since VAX machines are as strong as oxen, we have the plural VAXen. And from there it (I assume) got applied to other things that do alot of work, like emacs (emacsen), and a couple of machines (boxen). That is atleast how I gather it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 0:00 [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary Miles Bader 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl @ 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-15 18:34 ` Kevin Rodgers 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Robert J. Chassell @ 2005-06-14 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Thomas Widmann wrote, ... it might interest people in this group that "emacs" is defined in the new edition of the Collins English Dictionary (7th edition). The dictionary gives the plural as "emacsen", and it is defined as follows: "a powerful computer program used for creating and editing text, functioning primarily through keyboard commands". Unfortunately, the definition is wrong in two ways: * first, the definition follows RMS in saying that moving files and such is a form of editing. Such actions are a form of editing but most people do not speak that way. They speak of renaming a file as different from changing a word within a file. If the Collins English Dictionary uses his definition, it needs to explain RMS' idiosyncratic language in the definition itself. * second, Emacs is much more than an editor (unless you use RMS' definition of editing). It is simpler and shorter to say that Emacs is an integrating environment, like a command line interface or a graphic user interface. Emacs is a virtual lisp machine. Like a shell which has VI, Emacs has editing. In the same way, the various graphic user interfaces have editors and word processors, too. And you can move or rename files in all the interfaces. The Emacspeak auditory desktop, although derived from the Emacs virtual lisp machine, is a different, fourth, form of integrated user environment. See http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/four-interfaces.html A better definition for Emacs is: "... a powerful computer program that is one of the four major integrated user environments. Like a command line interface or a graphic user interface, Emacs provides editing and other features. Although it provides various mouse commands, people often control it through keyboard commands. The Emacspeak auditory desktop is derived from this program, but is a different, fourth integrated user environment." or shorter: "Emacs is an integrated user environment, like a command line interface or a graphic user interface. It provides editing and other features. Although it provides various mouse commands, people often control Emacs through keyboard commands." People attempting humour use "emacsen" as the plural. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell @ 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 19:52 ` Nic Ferrier 2005-06-15 18:34 ` Kevin Rodgers 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2005-06-14 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: thomas.widmann, emacs-devel >>>>> "RJC" == Robert J Chassell <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: RJC> Like a shell which has VI, Emacs has editing. In the same way, RJC> the various graphic user interfaces have editors and word RJC> processors, too. And you can move or rename files in all the RJC> interfaces. I completly disagree. Emacs is an editor, the finest one. Oh, by the way, it's programmable in the same language used to build it. This leaves the door open to the most strange uses of a text editor, a thing that pleases hackers. Integrated envirnonment usually lack the elegance and simple extensibility of Emacs while all the extensions are both a sort of editing and a very useful complement to editing. -- /\ ___ /___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________ //--\ | | \| | Integralista GNUslamico \/ e coltivatore diretto di software ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 22:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-15 0:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2005-06-14 19:52 ` Nic Ferrier 1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Robert J. Chassell @ 2005-06-14 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: thomas.widmann, emacs-devel Emacs is an editor ... At some point, an `editor' ceases to be a program that encompasses all the ways that people can twiddle bits and becomes something else. People like RMS do not see any difference between changing a file name and changing a word within that file, but others do. When you speak the word `editor' and wish to communicate, you must either tell your listener that you are using an uncommon definition, or use a different term. I am not saying that RMS is incorrect in this thought, but that when using the word `editor', he and others fail to communicate successfully unless they explain what they mean. The definition I saw did _not_ say "using an uncommon definition of the word, one that to most people means `integrated user environment', Emacs is an editor." As written, the definition misleads people into thinking that Emacs falls into the same category as VI or Notepad. Integrated envirnonment usually lack the elegance and simple extensibility of Emacs ... Yes, indeed. That does not means that Emacs is not an integrated envirnonment; it means that others are not as elegant and simple. On this, we agree. Fewer words are needed to define Emacs as an integrated user environment with editing capabilities than to explain that the word `editor' is not as defined elsewhere in the dictionary, but is a special usage for the entry. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell @ 2005-06-14 22:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-15 0:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2005-06-14 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: thomas.widmann, saint, emacs-devel >>>>> "RJC" == Robert J Chassell <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: RJC> Emacs is an editor ... At some point, an `editor' ceases to Nope. Emacs can do it, but doesn't do it. I think that even Microsoft Word could be programmed to do such things but I' pretty sure that nobody would call it anithing else than word mangle\b\b\b\b\b\bprocessor. RJC> People like RMS do not see any difference between changing a file RJC> name and changing a word within that file, but others do. They see the difference IMHO. They understand that they are just specializations of altering information. RJC> When RJC> you speak the word `editor' and wish to communicate, you must RJC> either tell your listener that you are using an uncommon RJC> definition, I tell them I use an uncommon Editor, that's true. RJC> As written, the definition misleads people into thinking that RJC> Emacs falls into the same category as VI or Notepad. <kidding> Putting vi side by side with notepad is unfair to vi. While is notorious that vi is penance, notepad is almost useless. Therefore vi is much more useful. </kidding> vi is a powerful editor I'm not comfortable with unless for the shortest and quickest tasks. Anyway, using vi and (a lot of) shell scripts you can implement an Emacs. RJC> Yes, indeed. That does not means that Emacs is not an integrated RJC> envirnonment; Emacs can turn into a sort of integrated environment by loading the appropriate modules (auctex, jdee), but after all is an editor that does much more than other editors do and often by delegating the work to external programs. It's a sort of integrating editor more than an integrated environment (or collection of integrated environments). Something that could be as extensible as Emacs could be Eclipse. That's an integrated environment that does it all. But Emacs does editing. If you want it does tetris, but it's goal is to edit and to do it in the most productive way, often doing it for you. The editing capabilities of Emacs are so powerful that you can put them behind its ability to integrate other software work. That's why I disagree with you. -- /\ ___ /___/\__|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____________________ //--\ | | \| | Integralista GNUslamico \/ e coltivatore diretto di software ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 22:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2005-06-15 0:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2005-06-15 0:53 ` Daniel Brockman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2005-06-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: thomas.widmann, saint, emacs-devel "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: > As written, the definition misleads people into thinking that Emacs > falls into the same category as VI or Notepad. emacs seeps into every nook and cranny, first explicitly changing named bits locally, then meta-bits locally, then any bits outside of itself anywhere, then any bits including itself, then finally the perception of all those bits by its users, whether or not any external change is actually involved. people who don't understand this initially do so eventually, although they may not understand their understanding. every motion achieves change (surprisingly :-). thi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-15 0:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2005-06-15 0:53 ` Daniel Brockman 2005-06-15 22:13 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Daniel Brockman @ 2005-06-15 0:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes: > "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: > >> As written, the definition misleads people into thinking that Emacs >> falls into the same category as VI or Notepad. > > emacs seeps into every nook and cranny, first explicitly changing > named bits locally, then meta-bits locally, then any bits outside of > itself anywhere, then any bits including itself, I'm with you on all these... > then finally the perception of all those bits by its users, whether > or not any external change is actually involved. ...but you've lost me here. Are you saying that Emacs at some point becomes the lens through which we percieve every part of reality, including (and not limited to) Emacs itself? > people who don't understand this initially do so eventually, > although they may not understand their understanding. Will we at least know as soon enough we understand? > every motion achieves change (surprisingly :-). You've lost me again. Are you talking about Emacs development, developer health, that weird Japanese game, or the second law of thermodynamics? -- Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-15 0:53 ` Daniel Brockman @ 2005-06-15 22:13 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2005-06-15 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> writes: > Will we at least know as soon enough we understand? to know what you know: switch-to-buffer. to know what you understand: C-h v. to understand what you know: C-h f. to understand what you understand: M-x dired RET ~/src/emacs/ RET. > You've lost me again. Are you talking about Emacs development, > developer health, that weird Japanese game, or the second law > of thermodynamics? yes, depending on the contents of your ~/.emacs (or equivalent :-). thi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell @ 2005-06-14 19:52 ` Nic Ferrier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: Nic Ferrier @ 2005-06-14 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: bob, thomas.widmann, emacs-devel GianUberto.Lauri@eng.it (Gian Uberto Lauri) writes: >>>>>> "RJC" == Robert J Chassell <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: > > RJC> Like a shell which has VI, Emacs has editing. In the same way, > RJC> the various graphic user interfaces have editors and word > RJC> processors, too. And you can move or rename files in all the > RJC> interfaces. > > I completly disagree. > > Emacs is an editor, the finest one. Oh, by the way, it's programmable > in the same language used to build it. This leaves the door open to > the most strange uses of a text editor, a thing that pleases hackers. > > Integrated envirnonment usually lack the elegance and simple > extensibility of Emacs while all the extensions are both a sort of > editing and a very useful complement to editing. At the risk of sounding pious... we really are getting into religous territory here when we're supposed to all be doing what we can to make a release happen. I know I'm as guilty as everyone else... but I've just noticed it. Nic ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri @ 2005-06-15 18:34 ` Kevin Rodgers 2005-06-15 21:54 ` foo experimental account 1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread From: Kevin Rodgers @ 2005-06-15 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert J. Chassell wrote: > It is simpler and shorter to say that Emacs is an integrating > environment, like a command line interface or a graphic user > interface. Emacs is a virtual lisp machine. Emacs can be an integrating environment, and it does have both graphical and command line interfaces. But it is definitely a text editor. The Emacs manual has the correct definition, which the dictionary should paraphrase: GNU Emacs [is] the GNU incarnation of the advanced, self-documenting, customizable, extensible real-time display editor. (Shouldn't "incarnation" be "implementation"?) And the manual explains each of those terms (see esp. "advanced" and "extensible"): Emacs is a "display" editor because normally the text being edited is visible on the screen and is updated automatically as you type your commands. It [is] a "real-time" editor because the display is updated very frequently, usually after each character or pair of characters you type. Emacs [is] advanced because it provides facilities that go beyond simple insertion and deletion: controlling subprocesses; automatic indentation of programs; viewing two or more files at once; editing formatted text; and dealing in terms of characters, words, lines, sentences, paragraphs, and pages, as well as expressions and comments in several different programming languages. "Self-documenting" means that at any time you can type a special character, `Control-h', to find out what your options are. "Customizable" means that you can change the definitions of Emacs commands in little ways. "Extensible" means that you can go beyond simple customization and write entirely new commands, programs in the Lisp language to be run by Emacs's own Lisp interpreter. -- Kevin Rodgers ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary 2005-06-15 18:34 ` Kevin Rodgers @ 2005-06-15 21:54 ` foo experimental account 0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread From: foo experimental account @ 2005-06-15 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw) When you see a `login' prompt, you can start with Emacs just as you can start with BASH or X. In fact, I am writing this from such an Emacs, user `foo', not from an instance of Emacs running in X under user `bob' as you might guess from my Reply-to line and signature. Kevin Rodgers writes, Emacs can be an integrating environment, and it does have both graphical and command line interfaces. But it is definitely a text editor. There is no doubt Emacs can be an integrating environment. Similarly, BASH can be an integrating environment. Although it lacks a graphical interface, with its libraries, for example those for ed or vi, it also is definitely a text editor. Indeed, no one wants an integrating user environment that lacks some way of editing text, moving files, evoking interpreted commands, and evoking commands written in compiled languages. The Emacs manual has the correct definition ... Why do you think it has the correct definition? After all, RMS said that moving files is a form of editing. Indeed, I agree, such actions are a form of editing. But few speak that way. Most people speak of renaming a file as different from changing a word within a file. And while the Emacs manual has room to define each of its terms, such as `advanced', a dictionary entry does not. I like thi's comment: emacs seeps into every nook and cranny, ... explicitly changing ... the perception of all those bits by its users ... people who don't understand this initially do so eventually ... but the change takes time. A dictionary entry has little space and its readers little time. Certainly, as Nic Ferrier said, we are in religious territory when we argue over what makes for a good dictionary entry for people who know nothing of Emacs. But that does not mean religious arguments are irrelevant. After all, one argument in the US is whether self-replicating entities have the capacity to make changes when replicating, and the implications of that, or whether their replication produces entities that must be similar (and implications). If you conclude the latter, you can safely cut your budget for research on the growth of drug resistance among germs. The argument over Emacs' definition in a dictionary entry is less significant. But it is not completely insignificant. The grammar in a command line interface like BASH is different from the grammar in a graphical user interface. Currently, those two environments provide the two most commonly perceived grammars. (I mean grammar here as a linguist does, as a way of structuring representations.) The grammar of a virtual lisp machine is different. (Not hugely different, but different enough.) That is what this argument is about: what grammars should people commonly perceive as being suitable for integrated environments, for what can come up when they type their account name and password to a login prompt? -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-06-15 22:13 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2005-06-14 0:00 [comp.emacs] "Emacs" defined in Collins English Dictionary Miles Bader 2005-06-14 12:18 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 12:56 ` Nic Ferrier 2005-06-14 13:40 ` Mathias Dahl 2005-06-14 13:03 ` Juanma Barranquero 2005-06-14 13:11 ` Juanma Barranquero 2005-06-14 13:35 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2005-06-14 13:10 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 15:53 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-14 19:11 ` Robert J. Chassell 2005-06-14 22:49 ` Gian Uberto Lauri 2005-06-15 0:00 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2005-06-15 0:53 ` Daniel Brockman 2005-06-15 22:13 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2005-06-14 19:52 ` Nic Ferrier 2005-06-15 18:34 ` Kevin Rodgers 2005-06-15 21:54 ` foo experimental account
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