* NEWS.22: `allows' without an object @ 2007-05-28 21:17 Robert J. Chassell [not found] ` <2cd46e7f0705281639m4e06b938sd0fbcc6d710812dc@mail.gmail.com> ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Robert J. Chassell @ 2007-05-28 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel In English, as heard by a native, *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows to in emacs/etc/NEWS.22 sounds wrong. It would sound better if it were *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows you to ^^^ Also in that same file, in *** You can now use Auto Revert mode to `tail' a file. the line the end of the buffer in that window. This allows to tail a file: could be the end of the buffer in that window. This allows you to tail a file: ^^^ In *** Support for `movemail' from GNU mailutils was added to Rmail. the line This version of `movemail' allows to read mail from a wide range of could be This version of `movemail' allows you to read mail from a wide range of ^^^ (I think I found all the infelicities involving `allow'. There may be others but I stopped because the file was too big. Mostly, I just looked at the outline, but even that was large, over 5000 lines. You may substitute `GNU Emacs' for `you'.) -- Robert J. Chassell GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 bob@rattlesnake.com bob@gnu.org http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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* NEWS.22: `allows' without an object [not found] ` <2cd46e7f0705281639m4e06b938sd0fbcc6d710812dc@mail.gmail.com> @ 2007-05-28 23:41 ` Ken Manheimer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Ken Manheimer @ 2007-05-28 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel, bob On 5/28/07, Robert J. Chassell <bob@rattlesnake.com> wrote: > In English, as heard by a native, > > *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows to > > in emacs/etc/NEWS.22 sounds wrong. It would sound better if it were > > *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows you to > ^^^ well, heck, why not use "enables" instead of "allows"? "to allow" is to not refuse something, to permit it. "to enable" is to activate or provide the means to do something. seems like 80% of the time that i see "allows" in instructions, "enables" is what was meant. (the other 20% of the time, the instructions are properly using the word to endorse valid inputs, or something like that...) > looked at the outline, but even that was large, over 5000 lines. You > may substitute `GNU Emacs' for `you'.) "may substitute" - again, permission when something else is meant, in this case, propriety - "you might substitute `GNU Emacs'..." i don't mean to claim particular grammar chops, this is just a peeve of mine. -- ken http://myriadicity.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-28 21:17 NEWS.22: `allows' without an object Robert J. Chassell [not found] ` <2cd46e7f0705281639m4e06b938sd0fbcc6d710812dc@mail.gmail.com> @ 2007-05-29 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-05-29 10:33 ` Robert J. Chassell 2007-05-29 4:10 ` Richard Stallman 2007-05-29 8:20 ` Alan Mackenzie 3 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-05-29 3:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bob; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:17:10 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> > > the line > This version of `movemail' allows to read mail from a wide range of > could be > This version of `movemail' allows you to read mail from a wide range of > ^^^ I think "allows reading mail" is also okay, and doesn't require "you". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-05-29 9:51 ` David Reitter 2007-05-29 19:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-05-29 10:33 ` Robert J. Chassell 1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-05-29 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: bob, emacs-devel >> the line >> This version of `movemail' allows to read mail from a wide range of >> could be >> This version of `movemail' allows you to read mail from a wide range of >> ^^^ > I think "allows reading mail" is also okay, and doesn't require "you". That's indeed what I was told, and that's a source of the confusion (for me at least): in most contexts, "blabla to read mail" and "blabla reading mail" translate into the exact same thing in French, so I tend to not know when to use which. In the specific case of "allow" and "enable", I know I'm not alone ;-) Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-05-29 9:51 ` David Reitter 2007-05-29 19:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: David Reitter @ 2007-05-29 9:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: bob, Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel On 29 May 2007, at 09:48, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> I think "allows reading mail" is also okay, and doesn't require >> "you". > > That's indeed what I was told, and that's a source of the confusion > (for me > at least): in most contexts, "blabla to read mail" and "blabla > reading mail" > translate into the exact same thing in French, so I tend to not > know when to > use which. > In the specific case of "allow" and "enable", I know I'm not alone ;-) "Reading" is used as a noun here, and "allow + noun" is an English construction. Additionally, English allows for the omission of the agent of nouns that have been converted from verbs (read -> reading): "Reading was popular in the 50's" is okay, even though it is not specified who is reading. (The genitive takes the place of the subject, otherwise: "Peter's writing was awful.") "Allow" is a control verb, where the entity that experiences the "allowing" is realized as an object, but is also the subject of the complement clause: "A allows B to do X" means "A permits that B do X". A complement with "to" always means that a clause follows, and this calls for a subject in English. With a control verb like "allow", you should therefore always use the extra object: "The rain allows John to go back to bed." In the general case, I find the verbal style better than the noun style, but native speakers may have a different view. -- David Reitter ICCS/HCRC, Informatics, University of Edinburgh http://www.david-reitter.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-05-29 9:51 ` David Reitter @ 2007-05-29 19:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-05-29 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: bob, emacs-devel > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 04:48:50 -0400 > Cc: bob@rattlesnake.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > In the specific case of "allow" and "enable", I know I'm not alone ;-) "Enable" is almost always wrong in such contexts, so it is better to avoid that word altogether. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-05-29 10:33 ` Robert J. Chassell 2007-05-29 11:13 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Robert J. Chassell @ 2007-05-29 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel As Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> says, "allow" needs a direct object, > This version of `movemail' allows you to read mail from a wide range of > ^^^ I think "allows reading mail" is also okay, and doesn't require "you". `Reading' serves (or maybe the object is the whole phrase, `reading mail' -- I don't know.) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote ... in most contexts, "blabla to read mail" and "blabla reading mail" translate into the exact same thing in French, so I tend to not know when to use which. I did not know. That explains a great deal. As Alan Mackenzie says, this instance needs `the person or thing being empowered'. On its own, in English, the phrase `to read' fails. The English is confusing. It may be that you can only comfortably learn this kind of construction when very young. You could write, `enables reading mail', too; that makes more sense. Before Eli Zaretskii made this observation, I had not noticed the distinction between gaining permission and gaining an ability, but it is there and important. After all, we are not talking about humans getting permission from the `movemail' code, as `allow' suggests, but gaining from it the power to act. -- Robert J. Chassell GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 bob@rattlesnake.com bob@gnu.org http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 10:33 ` Robert J. Chassell @ 2007-05-29 11:13 ` David Kastrup 2007-05-29 16:00 ` Ken Manheimer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-29 11:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bob; +Cc: emacs-devel "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: > As Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> says, "allow" needs a direct object, > > > This version of `movemail' allows you to read mail from a wide range of > > ^^^ > > I think "allows reading mail" is also okay, and doesn't require "you". > > `Reading' serves (or maybe the object is the whole phrase, `reading > mail' -- I don't know.) > > I did not know. That explains a great deal. > > As Alan Mackenzie says, this instance needs `the person or thing being > empowered'. On its own, in English, the phrase `to read' fails. > > The English is confusing. It may be that you can only comfortably > learn this kind of construction when very young. > > You could write, `enables reading mail', too; that makes more sense. Actually, I find that "enables" is suffering from a similar degree of awkwardness. I'd probably use "facilitates reading mail ..." instead: this is an enabled-object-free verb, though a bit more pompous. More closely related to "allows" would be "permits reading"; this is simpler than "facilitates", though, like "allows", slightly wrong as this is not a question of permission. > Before Eli Zaretskii made this observation, I had not noticed the > distinction between gaining permission and gaining an ability, but > it is there and important. After all, we are not talking about > humans getting permission from the `movemail' code, as `allow' > suggests, but gaining from it the power to act. I should read postings to their end before replying. Saves time. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-29 11:13 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-05-29 16:00 ` Ken Manheimer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Ken Manheimer @ 2007-05-29 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: bob, emacs-devel On 5/29/07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes: > > You could write, `enables reading mail', too; that makes more sense. > > Actually, I find that "enables" is suffering from a similar degree of > awkwardness. I'd probably use "facilitates reading mail ..." instead: > this is an enabled-object-free verb, though a bit more pompous. More > closely related to "allows" would be "permits reading"; this is > simpler than "facilitates", though, like "allows", slightly wrong as > this is not a question of permission. not sure what you mean by "enabled-object-free verb", but i often find "facilitates" a lot more stuffy than "enables". in any case, they both avoid misuse of "allows". > > Before Eli Zaretskii made this observation, I had not noticed the > > distinction between gaining permission and gaining an ability, but > > it is there and important. After all, we are not talking about (i think robert is referring to the point i made, not eli?) > > humans getting permission from the `movemail' code, as `allow' > > suggests, but gaining from it the power to act. exactly. this is one of those subtle misuses which continues because it is common, yet (i doubt) is part of gradual language evolution, because relaxing the meaning of "allow" so much would render it ambiguous. -- ken http://myriadicity.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-28 21:17 NEWS.22: `allows' without an object Robert J. Chassell [not found] ` <2cd46e7f0705281639m4e06b938sd0fbcc6d710812dc@mail.gmail.com> 2007-05-29 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-05-29 4:10 ` Richard Stallman 2007-05-29 8:20 ` Alan Mackenzie 3 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-05-29 4:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bob; +Cc: emacs-devel Thanks. There must be someone who writes entries for etc/NEWS who thinks that is a valid English construct. If he reads your message, he will probably know better in the future. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: NEWS.22: `allows' without an object 2007-05-28 21:17 NEWS.22: `allows' without an object Robert J. Chassell ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2007-05-29 4:10 ` Richard Stallman @ 2007-05-29 8:20 ` Alan Mackenzie 3 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2007-05-29 8:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Robert J. Chassell; +Cc: emacs-devel Hi, Robert! On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:17:10PM -0400, Robert J. Chassell wrote: > In English, as heard by a native, > *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows to > in emacs/etc/NEWS.22 sounds wrong. It would sound better if it were > *** New user option `help-at-pt-display-when-idle' allows you to > ^^^ This is a very common solecism in all technical English written by "foreigners"; though I thoroughly respect, even admire, their mastery of such a bastard capricious language as English. I think it would be useful to emphasise the principle: "allow" needs a DIRECT OBJECT. This d.o. can either be: (i) the person or thing being empowered: "auto-revert allows YOU to 'tail' a file"; "auto-revert allows EMACS to tail a file"; (ii) The object of the allowed action: "auto-revert allows A FILE to be tailed". (this is really the same as (i), but with a passive verb); (iii) the process being allowed - this is often a gerund[*], but need not be: "auto-revert allows THE TAILING of a file"; "The law courts allow THE FILING of a tale"; [*] "gerund", a grammatical term, means the noun form of a verb: "the allowing". It has the same form as the present participle, but is distinct from it. Other languages just use an infinitive here - e.g. in German, "das Erlauben". The same (or very similar) constructs are used by many other English words: "enable", "permit", "encourage", "force", "help", "suggest", .... Also to be noted: negative words like this ("prevent", "discourage", ...) tend to use "from" rather than "to": "Write protection prevents you FROM altering a file." "Write protection prevents a file FROM being altered." "Write protection prevents the alteration of a file." Like all grammatical rules in English, this one has exceptions. We English speakers have got to keep presumptious foreigners in their place somehow. ;-) -- Alan Mackenzie (Ittersbach, Germany). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-05-29 19:27 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-05-28 21:17 NEWS.22: `allows' without an object Robert J. Chassell [not found] ` <2cd46e7f0705281639m4e06b938sd0fbcc6d710812dc@mail.gmail.com> 2007-05-28 23:41 ` Ken Manheimer 2007-05-29 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-05-29 8:48 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-05-29 9:51 ` David Reitter 2007-05-29 19:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-05-29 10:33 ` Robert J. Chassell 2007-05-29 11:13 ` David Kastrup 2007-05-29 16:00 ` Ken Manheimer 2007-05-29 4:10 ` Richard Stallman 2007-05-29 8:20 ` Alan Mackenzie
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