From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why Emacs needs a modern bug tracker Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:38:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20080104164454.0A4BD830697@snark.thyrsus.com> <20080104232514.GB2735@muc.de> <87r6gxoyjv.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199547485 7511 80.91.229.12 (5 Jan 2008 15:38:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:38:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 05 16:38:26 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JBB6P-0005IC-Ir for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:38:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBB62-0003gE-Vh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:38:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JBB5y-0003cY-OT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:37:58 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JBB5x-0003ZR-5E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:37:57 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBB5x-0003ZE-0u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:37:57 -0500 Original-Received: from heller.inter.net.il ([213.8.233.23]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JBB5w-0007mb-Et for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:37:56 -0500 Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 (IGLD-80-230-71-78.inter.net.il [80.230.71.78]) by heller.inter.net.il (MOS 3.7.3a-GA) with ESMTP id EOG08124 (AUTH halo1); Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:37:53 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: (message from =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= on Sat, 05 Jan 2008 03:54:23 +0100) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.7-5.2 (or MacOS X 10.2-10.4) (2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:86181 Archived-At: > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar_Fuentes?= > Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 03:54:23 +0100 > > You are right on some aspect: so far there was too much insistence on > how old-fashioned Emacs' development is and how cool modern practices > are. Of course, this approach is wrong. We, the advocates of change, > should provide more evidence supporting our proposals. Not just evidence: you should volunteer to do actual work. One of the main weaknesses of Emacs development is (IMO) scarce resources (scarce for such a humongously large package). Many good ideas posted to this list through the years were never implemented for that very reason. A bug tracker is a good case in point: Richard stated quite some time ago the basic requirements for his acceptance of such a tool, but no one stepped forward to do anything practical about that. You might argue that this is a chicken-and-egg problem: if the tools we use were more efficient, more developers would have come on board. That might be so, but I challenge you (and other proponents of change) to break the vicious circle by making things happen. > For the bug tracker, I'm afraid it will not so easy. Most likely, > current Emacs developers should trade some diary personal incovenience > for some long-term project development efficiency. On the other hand, it > is difficult to appreciate the convenience of having an audit of a bug > or feature until you are using the system for some months. Starting such a system, but not making it mandatory, would be a good step towards the goal of having a good tracker in the future. In general, a controversial feature should start as an option, before it becomes the default.