From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:54:48 +0200 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii , 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235819086 25931 80.91.229.12 (28 Feb 2009 11:04:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:04:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xah@xahlee.org, rms@gnu.org, 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 28 12:06:01 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LdN10-0007Sc-A6 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:06:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52069 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdMzf-0004GV-64 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:04:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdMyt-0003qg-OQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:03:43 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdMyr-0003o1-FJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:03:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47107 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdMyr-0003nh-9l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:03:41 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:44262) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LdMyq-0003U3-7T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:03:40 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SB3csI014594; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:03:38 -0800 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n1SB030o013009; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:00:03 -0800 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 2473 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 2473-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B2473.123581849611140 (code B ref 2473); Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:00:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 10:54:56 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il (mtaout1.012.net.il [84.95.2.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SAsqm1011115 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:54:54 -0800 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KFR00900VN8QP00@i-mtaout1.012.net.il> for 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:55:25 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.167.119]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KFR004SFVO80V40@i-mtaout1.012.net.il>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:55:22 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:03:42 -0500 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:25833 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, Eli Zaretskii , xah@xahlee.org > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 > > > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, > > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", > > e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > > (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: > > > + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > > + Minor Modes > > > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > > > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it > > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > > > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. For the record: I don't mind whether the major mode is first or last, nor whether it is Initially shown expanded or collapsed. > I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth > the trouble. The difference is twofold, IMO: . it presents a UI that's familiar to most users . it makes it easy to show initially a very short text without hampering user's ability to get to the information she needs most If that's not worth the trouble, then what is? (In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting that we make this change before Emacs 23.1 is released.)