From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Trey Jackson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:32:49 -0800 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199438520 26322 80.91.229.12 (4 Jan 2008 09:22:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:22:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 04 10:22:19 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JAiks-0002sv-GU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:22:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAikV-0006yg-L2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:21:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JAWkI-0007to-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:32:54 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JAWkG-0007st-HS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:32:53 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAWkG-0007so-DP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:32:52 -0500 Original-Received: from relay1.mentorg.com ([192.94.38.131]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JAWkG-0002FH-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:32:52 -0500 Original-Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com ([147.34.98.30]) by relay1.mentorg.com with esmtp id 1JAWkD-0000gW-US from trey_jackson@mentor.com ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:32:50 -0800 Original-Received: from quartzville.wv.mentorg.com ([147.34.37.95]) by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) Original-Received: from quartzville.wv.mentorg.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by quartzville.wv.mentorg.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m03KWnPn026756; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:32:49 -0800 Original-Received: (from tjackson@localhost) by quartzville.wv.mentorg.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id m03KWnEg026755; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:32:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: quartzville.wv.mentorg.com: tjackson set sender to trey_jackson@mentor.com using -f X-Env-Sender: bigfaceworm@gmail.com Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAB5Q TFRF////AAAA1dXVw8PDqqqqgICAlZWVa2trPz8/VVVVTY+uPgAAADh0RVh0U29mdHdhcmUAWFYg VmVyc2lvbiAzLjEwYSAgUmV2OiAxMi8yOS85NCAoUE5HIHBhdGNoIDEuMindFS5JAAAA1klEQVR4 nGNgoBFgcXFOndoRKtHqghAzCW0UhAOJAKjCCEEk0B4A0x8IUxfqbIxkLiNIrFGwCd0+sPgkBkEF LBIFQEoQw4XsECEIyciCId8IkW7AkIDqc8CUcMAlASEx3MaA7ATqSCSgi7NAJCZiSEB1TBTAIeGI S4KRGhKSEAkRdHFWXBKcQhBKAl2CBWI4G0aYQCUwAwsW11hCkW4STLgkOEiWaMQMXTBgFsQhoYhh kqYTiGRtFEWXYBWUbADajMUkSO7EiCYg8ASJK2C1mckIu4uIBgA7YBfAwuxQFgAAAAd0SU1FB9MC GBMXLekvLfsAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Importance: high User-Agent: Gnus/5.1008 (Gnus v5.10.8) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:21:02 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:86051 Archived-At: ESR wrote: > This started out as part of a longer essay called "On not kissing the pig". > But that essay grew into an epic. Rather than dump it on the list all > at once, I think it will be useful if I start by giving everybody a > clear idea of the potential benefits of changing our practices. IMO, the development environment Emacs provides is very indicative of the environment used to develop Emacs. Namely, communication is email, and VCS is CVS. Those things work very well inside Emacs. ESR is pointing out that many folks have moved on to ... more sophisticated development methodologies (not saying better), and that, in comparison, Emacs seems antiquated. My take on the lessons to take from this thread (never saw ESR's promised lessons rant): Goal: Make changes in the way Emacs is developed in order to 1) enable more responsive Emacs development/releases 2) make Emacs development (and by extension Emacs) more attractive to new folks For example, moving to a new VCS would ensure that the Emacs/VCS integration works properly. As ESR (?) found out, Emacs' version control interface didn't map well into the newer VCSs - thereby prompting the recent rewrite. What else could be done? One might work on an IDE *framework* that is useful for Emacs developers as well as other projects? Components might include coupling between: - development system (code, build, run, debug, code browsing) - version control - bug tracking - communication (email, IRC, web) - task management (todo.el, planner.el) gud.el and vc.el are examples of similar work. Perhaps it's time for ide.el? To be clear, I'm not advocating moving to new VCS, bug tracking system, IRC, or *anything* just to be "hip" and "cool." Every change must provide benefit. It seems that the VCS discussion has revealed some benefits found in the newer VCSs that might be (are?) attractive to RMS & others. So... one possible conclusion is to work on an IDE framework that can be used by Emacs developers and potentially extended by others. For example, concrete steps that could be taken by Emacs development team: 1) move to new VCS -> ensures Emacs integration with new VCS works well 2) move to bug tracking system -> develop IDE hooks to coordinate bug system with VCS 3) integrate communication system with bug system/VCS -> IDE hooks auto-communicate check-ins with email/chat -> hooks for analyzing communication and interacting with VC/bug tracking Someone might then see the above framework and decide to add hooks to integrate with planner.el to assist in task management... Again, I'm not advocating making any specific changes (I'm sure I have no standing in this group as I am unknown). Just trying to pull together where I think this thread can lead. TJ ps. I think it's always good to reflect on how one approaches their tasks - even if no changes occur. It sounds like that's what is happening with Emacs development. -- Trey Jackson bigfaceworm@gmail.com "...all those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain. Time to die." -- Roy Batty