From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs ffi Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 23:21:48 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87a5hi0yts.fsf@valhala.localdomain> <86y152ge0b.fsf@gnu.org> <86jzgjfwqp.fsf@gnu.org> <87sev78arx.fsf@gmail.com> <86le0z89u1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o75v87n1.fsf@gmail.com> <86frr786k7.fsf@gnu.org> <86frr66s0o.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13510"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, nicolas@n16f.net, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii To: Andrea Corallo Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 17 07:40:36 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sfCB0-0003K6-VM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 07:40:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sfCAG-0003SF-P8; Sat, 17 Aug 2024 01:39:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sf4Od-0003Ml-Ea for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:22:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sf4Ob-0007kR-8z; Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:22:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1723843308; x=1724448108; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=XKI79B0wcr6PTKOTzyC1z6Qft43edMwuAQHDYe0lSC4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=P9ZNj02139UT6t/JJ6gv2s5kwF2qi6bQB6gOFTOHWq+BTALxkP4k5KV0O5qHgxZe 7hf0YbewMyADYXEzSokrQZ0fL08Wy3UHzXS36KLyFTyIv+Qc/hEeych0uG+T+eITS WsKQTsSuHMBFlX4bnNgEbaItlex+3ePh8SbGn48q3KoU9X4ssVwrfjy9P0lPeFoS8 bL41wV3ZU47KdY9uNBhnL5iJ/6Rt2gh/kSTrcltplZGJCM/P7uRaAGRUB2y6IFAxi 16yUYbc5NFx12Arza+cZf+XLXQph8hBCuNzwNgkBciBAtBR9CyyYf1HND21lWASh/ xb0ykppegRk292Jf7g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Fri, 16 Aug 2024 23:21:48 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:gGp/1IO2WK90YgkdLesUs9YfuLB1rcNGx3FZPsNsH9PvOathuDg7RD63mYXwns9Ft4GOR RV4Jc/EylBZEiPIPpsdzaVXMf3YmnYKELWAgJZi+K1VyMJDlhD6N+el2hND9NrxjPp8d7pZoWSUP w8BzifYzm8ksanCrehSyxi8TrzNgppqq3g5xrzyYdLhncxP3NFcF8pCt+qdNGBvLDxhXUQ0AG6Q7 BUjZWbmi74Az+A31cSTQt4ZKFXbH6OB08bEgOnh/WQygacZTVOlsSQkpbVdos60orJq1SDJ3hmcV Fc= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:hrBHxFQiECM=;+0JRt2q03C6gTOjP9vUo3enQyl5 Hkl7RAGwDcIteA2KG7jFS6CBwwowQMNLHsv2K1iB/QWhnP5IfV7xVs725DzL6kc/UdnmSg0Fy ZWuVLv5xH9+ydK+WX8TFkhBSMWkrqraAEPOj2L2+33wWKFEZ/Uxlw6Vs2JvBy9qECUtt1OdJ7 Mv1/Yi7wCd1OCey6sBZ3JnbvsksaiLW7BPqKiJl862ch2TkZfkJk8oTPGgTjpEnJWJaM6AMHc 3GvLgVOYyq5u7hSBlO4N+dW3Ow+5OSRcMlB7PQ8e7lp0fp5MkWk7Smebw9rGKlF5zQKxnFX1W 9rzNhvqthkL8UWgTNmkUTNwQ47xPM2cDZS7NupRql5SQ0Rli2LIh6NfUyBHdg9MyeMZr3FV9W fDAcQ1GzsvZwZUGKRWYXTG2myUe+9ZWyOy7cRyznQwmABt2yhk/V2zB25eIAWBRWitAgfQv7V NBwoD/0BDlavJ/7VNwNTO9hSjp0oqMwvHoMDH+CnacBlHSMoLEltPIOiKQ0vyZ7h9U4W06TIs VY+hnJMqJl3KK6iwVwr/4hZHStcYMuZKsiNrhuYsPKVomakdk04kKrIf36T3afdqa9z484UI0 YDOxW1HJl1vkZxV4itMHbXEfTzCqODXZ7oa+QwBiqI5S9F7lcgeiH5V04IIZ1jbyPsKZhGO9N VQmvAY8vzqSJqLHF74BobThoJ+IJBxHh6/LhzDsf7Q== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.19; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Aug 2024 01:39:44 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322815 Archived-At: > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2024 at 8:07 AM > From: "Andrea Corallo" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail=2Ecom, gerd=2Emoellmann@gmail=2Ecom, nicolas@n1= 6f=2Enet, arthur=2Emiller@live=2Ecom, emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg, "Eli Zaretskii= " > Subject: Re: Emacs ffi > > Christopher Dimech writes: >=20 > >> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2024 at 8:32 AM > >> From: "Andrea Corallo" > >> To: "Eli Zaretskii" > >> Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail=2Ecom, gerd=2Emoellmann@gmail=2Ecom, nicolas= @n16f=2Enet, arthur=2Emiller@live=2Ecom, emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg > >> Subject: Re: Emacs ffi > >> > >> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> > >> >> From: Andrea Corallo > >> >> Cc: Suhail Singh , gerd=2Emoellmann@g= mail=2Ecom, > >> >> nicolas@n16f=2Enet, arthur=2Emiller@live=2Ecom, emacs-devel@gn= u=2Eorg > >> >> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:31:49 -0400 > >> >> > >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> >> > >> >> > The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ libr= ary to > >> >> > declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain na= me=2E > >> >> > That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp progra= m > >> >> > which loads it=2E > >> >> > >> >> But we could do the same for our hypothetical ffi machinery, that = is: > >> >> `define-ffi-library' could fail if the shared library is not expor= ting > >> >> the predetermined symbol we expect no? > >> > > >> > Of course=2E But how many such libraries do that? > >> > >> Dunno, ATM very few if not zero I guess=2E > > > > If there are no existing libraries that export the required symbol, it > > raises legitimate concerns about the feasibility and utility of the > > approach=2E Essentially, if the mechanism put in place is not supporte= d by > > any available libraries, then the mechanism is ineffective and overly > > idealistic=2E > > > > There exists a large disconnect between theoretical compliance and > > practical usability=2E If the requirements for compliance are so strin= gent > > or specific that no existing libraries can meet them, then it could be > > argued that the approach is not grounded in the reality of software > > development=2E >=20 > I disagree, this is normal evolution for software ex: every time a new > programming language is created (or a new feature is added to it) > compilers implement the related support, even if no programs are using > that language or that new extension at present=2E Is this a large > disconnect between theoretical compliance and practical usability? No, > is just that users will come later=2E >=20 > If Emacs requires the symbol maybe compatible libraries will just export > it afterwards (given the cost is close to zero)=2E - Andrea It is imposing an additional requirement that isn't typically necessary=20 in most other environments=2E Typically, mathematical libraries are designed to be widely applicable and used across various platforms and applications=2E Requiring these libraries to export a specific symbol or be designed with editor compatibility in mind is an unnecessary hurdle=2E Developers of libraries do not prioritize compatibility with editors like Emacs=2E To overcome the hurdle that Emacs is bringing upon itself, of requiring GPL compliance for mathematical libraries, it should provide its own built-in library as suggested by E=2E Berg=2E It is the pragmatic way to d= o it=2E I disagreed with Berg initially, but I can now understand his frustrations with the whole emacs design=2E Some free software simply cannot be used with GPL-licensed software like= =20 Emacs without violating the terms of one or both licenses=2E Requiring GP= L=20 compliance for integration is banal=2E Particularly when Emacs is not the= =20 one providing the library=2E It will be the user who will be using=2E On= e=20 simply cannot accuse a user to breaking any license if the library is not GPL compliant=2E The landscape of free software licenses is diverse, with= =20 many different licenses with many not compatible with each other=2E You=E2= =80=99d=20 have to put every teenager in the world in jail, and you can=E2=80=99t do = that !=20 But this message does not resonate within the minds of the core emacs main= tainers,=20 with the trend continuing for many years to come=2E Some believe that eve= rybody=20 in the world doesn=E2=80=99t get it about free software, and even that eve= rybody in the=20 world is a crook and that everybody in the world is trying to steal free s= oftware=20 and make bad use of it=2E I do not approve of such ideas=2E Many think t= hey know everything about copyright infringement, but never been thrown out of cour= t on=20 a motion to dismiss=2E =20 It's always the same, you'll get prima donna maintainers who are at the sa= me=20 level of priests, who preach a lot about licensing scenarios=2E But have = never=20 been there, never done it, but preaching a lot about what others can do an= d what=20 they cannot do=2E Too much coercion was surely not what we wanted to appl= y=2E As customary I get "Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator= =2E" from emacs-devel-owner@gnu=2Eorg=2E I wonder who it is=2E Actually I won= der why I wonder=2E We need to understand how that working together purposively brings us to t= he=20 point where everyone is not afraid of free software anymore and we are not= =20 worried about their complying anymore=2E We are just all engaging and lea= ding=20 the task of making free software=2E