From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: RE: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 00:53:48 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> <283134e4-2323-4c4b-b76e-aa656633d275@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8681"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Dmitry Gutov , Emacs developers , John Yates To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 17 00:55:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpgdK-00028o-My for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 00:55:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47634 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpgdJ-0004hJ-Nv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:55:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54958) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpgcG-0004Fg-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:53:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:34821) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpgcE-0000u1-QA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:53:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608162828; bh=V7yGF++FkRJGbss4IahaShHaE+Gfl1MHy/7WN9Epft0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=gP5jWOMvFW6LPKKkWfx8FdjAZ5S8uFNAz4bFYoisRf8yvGervuT4VeKAkx5mgB0mL Mjc6fnMfYsn3r9/eJzkbiAn7hbsWJHxilrrBqmHWokQydFfNo2Tuq6v/VHuswgKyeC Z0nj+MD1UOSztnBwXtBivN40IiQvYVRc5WX182Yk= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs11.server.lan [172.19.170.179]) (via HTTP); Thu, 17 Dec 2020 00:53:48 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <283134e4-2323-4c4b-b76e-aa656633d275@default> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+xaW+scz+Y5mMttaSDZ9NqzE+2trxNzCuhQKxI+gK7DX+iYMNaa7eHZr+QabBywvfq15D 66TqqwR/si+jVpaYc+Bc6hVO0uQXtWzJA60yCK9mTIKdbb1xrXsiJ3gU9dlBvQ1ghUF+r/IZxkZy m3Io1W4z6xfDE47+CZGZG7KV7eQmf1qVzMZ/vAiq2xM6aAXcZEGY0w3+iBQdp/KlYMKHwlbk7J1x BYzFVd/7v4uoskGiPMFJytqPWUU56QqIEXn82gs6CIlZ7wZyNAcovJX7mH2wuS+4HeStZgsBoeau Ms= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:u3X9GyG3KP4=:E9ML00qiwbR5r/vh6SvPY3 7juUpzkne2KW9GyDbuSZz8nTqPmVnzOvDPN5DlFdymE+kRC5FWC/nZ5/YjpmQFPkm42dq8zx5 6a5StezCRKwd4sOqVf1u8kAHtMJvFTe7eDF2swz+HPNzd6TuLl2ggIPDDas3vgxtKn12Z/qa5 a8H79R9yxhHnSOH1qPips9vmXWPk9prLAR51RLiZZ/Na7eHMI+8tndIPJOyLbKNeh5me2JKj3 0+mdtFllroeGX/vQ0AJftG0SCmciy0+WNMngVGCQmR5M/F7WWE/MArbZCDvDHkWtlXrh6TMR8 zVqCdZLhv+eVpipwDe0iUfmOz+6WsY44450hUoPOpFO5Hy+7Ra+guyMFy0vRAtGxHX2iWdrru BMgBv9d2aYaZ+g6LkFKJ2EOSOFlOeab9NsB0KP3SGDDhhL2SwyOzjq/QMoE+UaRQ7g8wUYxa4 KSi9a5FAk2kwu9ufRN3C3o5jCovTh/INX2GQaikoej+xWoL9yEHvvmKv8QMRhRYOFiXjGd8py 9Ah8Mk3jljiOu8aVDWCiviYFFU+s9aNzmpIk2LJ8DGfYV2Ro8ToRY4NInQvJN88ZET6yOEIik MbtjDzA06kEAA= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.21; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261075 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 9:29 PM > From: "Drew Adams" > To: "John Yates" , "Dmitry Gutov" > Cc: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" , "Emacs developers" > Subject: RE: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > > My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of th= e > > population was computer literate. These days I would expect them only > > on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute beg= inners. > > > > Folk using more featureful editors (emacs or otherwise) can be assumed > > to have already mastered some of the fundamentals of editing text. Pu= t > > another way, can we not assume that anyone, even those using emacs > > for the very first time, has some notion of key bindings (even if thos= e are > > C-c, C-x and C-v) and expects New, Open, Save, SaveAs and Close on > > a File menu? > > Actually, there are a fair number of GUI applications > that pretty much require a lot of mouse clicking - no > easy way to use the keyboard for many things. > > And of those there are a fair number that have lots > of toolbar buttons/icons. And in such contexts it > can sometimes be quicker to click such a button than > to access the equivalent menu item, which might be > nested (whether from the menu bar or a popup menu). Absolutely correct. But many fail to properly realise that. > Such things don't apply to Emacs, in the sense that > you're not _required_ to use menus or a toolbar. But > their existence elsewhere might be an argument for > Emacs supporting them. It is on the opposite side of the spectrum. If the trend in this discussi= on continues, Emacs will be forcing you to use keybindings, no other option. That is a regression. Emacs must provide flexibilityon both aspects. Or = at least the functionality to do so by writing some elisp.